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Subject: Libyan Rebel asks George Bush to intervene rss

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Mac Mcleod
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We should be withdrawing from these places, not adding new ones. We need to return to historical conservative policies of staying out of other country's business.

We can't afford it now. We should cut our foreign entanglements by 20% as part of the budget cutting process with the option to cut them another 10%. It would make the remaining 80% appreciate the american protection and money spent in those countries.
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Drew1365 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/03/us-libya-protests-...

Quote:
The rebels, armed with rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns and tanks, called on Wednesday for U.N.-backed air strikes on foreign mercenaries it said were fighting for Gaddafi.

Opposition activists called for a no-fly zone, echoing a demand by Libya's deputy U.N. envoy, who now opposes Gaddafi.

"Bring Bush! Make a no fly zone, bomb the planes," shouted soldier-turned-rebel Nasr Ali, referring to a no-fly zone imposed on Iraq in 1991 by then President George Bush.
There is always someoen caling for intervention. Answering to these calls is dangerous becuase it is entirely unclear what their agenda is, what level of popular support they can muster or even exactly who they are. Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.
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Matthew M
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Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.


His country's leader has been in power for 42 years. He's probably made an assumption about ours.

This is why it's important to have good teachers.

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Venga2 wrote:
Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.


I dunno, the Iraq no-fly zone in the 90s seemed pretty pitiful. Unenforceable. Like trying to punish a teenager who has figured out that you don't have any real power.

"That's it, Iraq, you're grounded. I mean it. Hey, where are you--you get back here! Don't you open that door! I swear if you so much as touch that doorknob, I'll--Okay that does it, you're...um, DOUBLE grounded! That's right!

Don't you give me that look, you're gonna get it!
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Zedsdead wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.


I dunno, the Iraq no-fly zone in the 90s seemed pretty pitiful. Unenforceable. Like trying to punish a teenager who has figured out that you don't have any real power.

"That's it, Iraq, you're grounded. I mean it. Hey, where are you--you get back here! Don't you open that door! I swear if you so much as touch that doorknob, I'll--Okay that does it, you're...um, DOUBLE grounded! That's right!

Don't you give me that look, you're gonna get it!
i assume it would be a short period ban. However I agree that if you'r not going to enforce it by actually shooting down military aircraft it is pointless and should even be contemplated.
 
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A true no-fly zone that grounded Saddam's attack helicopters would probably have saved lives and might have given the Kurds, at least, a fighting chance. Of course, a good supply of Stingers and AT4s might have accomplished the same end.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Its odd becasue some British news reports are saying that after Camerons well thought out and incisive intervetion comments (it goes to show that an expensive education means sod all) the Lybian rebels said they don't want foreign intervention.
 
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Venga2 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/03/us-libya-protests-...

Quote:
The rebels, armed with rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns and tanks, called on Wednesday for U.N.-backed air strikes on foreign mercenaries it said were fighting for Gaddafi.

Opposition activists called for a no-fly zone, echoing a demand by Libya's deputy U.N. envoy, who now opposes Gaddafi.

"Bring Bush! Make a no fly zone, bomb the planes," shouted soldier-turned-rebel Nasr Ali, referring to a no-fly zone imposed on Iraq in 1991 by then President George Bush.
There is always someoen caling for intervention. Answering to these calls is dangerous becuase it is entirely unclear what their agenda is, what level of popular support they can muster or even exactly who they are. Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.


Aircraft are expensive to fly (especialy given the price of oil) and if a plane is downed that means a rescue mission.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Drew1365 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.


His country's leader has been in power for 42 years. He's probably made an assumption about ours.

This is why it's important to have good teachers.




Makes one wonder why he didn't call for Ronald Reagan.


Maybe they wanted a decorated war hero?
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Or it could be that, like me, they think our current commander-in-chief is weak and ineffective.


Really?
 
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Matthew M
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Drew1365 wrote:


Well, I mean if it's true that they don't know who our current president is, why George Bush instead of the guy who once tried to take out Khaddafi with an air strike?


Wild guess...because Bush came after Reagan.

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Drew1365 wrote:
the cool kidz club? Think I care?


We're all posting about politics on a boardgaming forum, so I don't think any of us are or care about being cool.

I once did something cool, though. On Beale Street, in Memphis (see, cool already!), a limo was allowed to drive through a pedestrian zone. That struck me as sort of disrespectful and overprivileged, but when the occupants couldn't be bothered to walk ten feet to the garbage can, and instead tossed an empty carton of orange juice on the sidewalk, I picked it up and tapped on the window with it. No answer. So I tossed it in the open sunroof.

And, that's it. The coolest thing I've ever done. Sad, really.
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Or it could be that, like me, they think our current commander-in-chief is weak and ineffective.


Really?


Really what? Really that I think he's weak and ineffective? Yes, and? So? Is this going to get me kicked out of the cool kidz club? Think I care?


I think the sky is green, and the rest of you are wrong. I just don't think that there is a lot of evidence to back up either of our assertions. I know you think that Drew and I think your still cool. kiss
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Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.

And it's Bush 41!


I literally laughed out loud at this- Drew wasn't happy with the non-partisan direction the discussion was headed so he had to intervene. Good times.
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slatersteven wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/03/us-libya-protests-...

Quote:
The rebels, armed with rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns and tanks, called on Wednesday for U.N.-backed air strikes on foreign mercenaries it said were fighting for Gaddafi.

Opposition activists called for a no-fly zone, echoing a demand by Libya's deputy U.N. envoy, who now opposes Gaddafi.

"Bring Bush! Make a no fly zone, bomb the planes," shouted soldier-turned-rebel Nasr Ali, referring to a no-fly zone imposed on Iraq in 1991 by then President George Bush.
There is always someoen caling for intervention. Answering to these calls is dangerous becuase it is entirely unclear what their agenda is, what level of popular support they can muster or even exactly who they are. Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.


Aircraft are expensive to fly (especialy given the price of oil) and if a plane is downed that means a rescue mission.
Relative to a full intervention: cheap!
 
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Octavian wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.


His country's leader has been in power for 42 years. He's probably made an assumption about ours.

This is why it's important to have good teachers.



Heretic!

Why do you hate America!
 
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Les Marshall
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maxo-texas wrote:
We should be withdrawing from these places, not adding new ones. We need to return to historical conservative policies of staying out of other country's business.

We can't afford it now. We should cut our foreign entanglements by 20% as part of the budget cutting process with the option to cut them another 10%. It would make the remaining 80% appreciate the american protection and money spent in those countries.


This is part of the puzzle box of the middle east. Like it or not we are dependant on oil exports. It's why we have played colonial games like supporting the Saudi royal family, Mubarek in Egypt, the Shah in Iran (before the coup) and so on. Ideologically we should let the cards fall and middle east countries to sort themselves out by whatever democratic process they choose.

In the short run energy prices will be stressed and the global economy destabilized. In the long run we may have radical Islamic governments that turn from democracy as with Iran. It's an open question whether anti American sentiment would exist absent policies which have propped up dictatorial regimes.

Walking away from "foreign entanglements" in toto at this point is as potentially dangerous as staying involved.
 
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Les Marshall
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Drew1365 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.


His country's leader has been in power for 42 years. He's probably made an assumption about ours.

This is why it's important to have good teachers.




Makes one wonder why he didn't call for Ronald Reagan.


Maybe they wanted a decorated war hero?


Well, I mean if it's true that they don't know who our current president is, why George Bush instead of the guy who once tried to take out Khaddafi with an air strike?

Or it could be that, like me, they think our current commander-in-chief is weak and ineffective.


Thinking?! Gut reaction, non relfective, shoot from the hip character assassination.

Apprently when people in the middle east chant for Americans to get out of their countries it means nothing. When some of them ask for bombing it is regarded as some kind of intelligent assessment of the US president.

Thinking Obama is weak and ineffective? In what military sense is this so? He has been prosecuting the wars he was left with. If you mean that he has failed to manufacture propaganda to start some new wars like his predecessor, that is a failing we can all live with.

Was Bush '41 weak for not crushing Baghdad? Was George W. Bush weak for not invading Somalia or Sudan? Going after dictators has NEVER been our foreign policy. Crushing opponents or propping up puppets has been our policy where resources were on the line.

Given how thin we are stretched right now, the institution and maintainence of a no fly zone in Libya is far from a simple question. McCain is in support and, frankly, if we were to achieve the removal of Q-Daffy and left the fate of Libya in it's citizens hands we might achieve some good. Since Libya has almost no national infrastructure, picking up the pieces will be difficult. We'd be a lot better off if one of our European NATO allies carried the standard since Libyan oil goes mostly to Europe and the middle east may have seen enough of US war assets for awhile.

In any case Drew, you never cared what the average Arab in the street thought of our president before Obama. Why start now?
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Must not have told these guys:



Anyone want to volunteer to send this image to any and every U.S. president who even thinks of getting involved militarily in the Near East?

U.S. intervention: destroyed country.
People's Uprising: democracy.
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I think it's awesome that in the middle of a civil war, these guys were able to pull off a design coup.
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pauljackson wrote:
I think it's awesome that in the middle of a civil war, these guys were able to pull off a design coup.

Libya has less of this factor than neighboring countries, but one of the huge drivers of these revolutions is an educated and over-educated generation with literally no jobs, whatsoever, available. (Because all jobs require endless graft to even start a business, with the regime thugs always getting their godfather cut.)

The young man who set this all off in Tunisia immolated himself because of all the oppression roughing him up for trying to operate a frickin' fruit stand. College educated, of course, unable to seek any job using his degree.

There's populace after populace full of very smart people who haven't been able to legally apply any of their skills. Photoshop-Fu is, I am sure, the least of it.
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Oh, I entirely agree. Across the border in Egypt, the April 6 Movement has been run by highly educated and savvy people, utilizing social media and nonviolent tactics adapted from the Serbian movement.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:


Well, I mean if it's true that they don't know who our current president is, why George Bush instead of the guy who once tried to take out Khaddafi with an air strike?


Wild guess...because Bush came after Reagan.


And Clinton came after Bush . . . and (holy crap, look what you made me write!)


But who was in front?
 
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Venga2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/03/us-libya-protests-...

Quote:
The rebels, armed with rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns and tanks, called on Wednesday for U.N.-backed air strikes on foreign mercenaries it said were fighting for Gaddafi.

Opposition activists called for a no-fly zone, echoing a demand by Libya's deputy U.N. envoy, who now opposes Gaddafi.

"Bring Bush! Make a no fly zone, bomb the planes," shouted soldier-turned-rebel Nasr Ali, referring to a no-fly zone imposed on Iraq in 1991 by then President George Bush.
There is always someoen caling for intervention. Answering to these calls is dangerous becuase it is entirely unclear what their agenda is, what level of popular support they can muster or even exactly who they are. Thats said a no-fly zone seems like a fairly easy and relatively cheap measure with few potential negative side effects.


Aircraft are expensive to fly (especialy given the price of oil) and if a plane is downed that means a rescue mission.
Relative to a full intervention: cheap!


And a lot more expensive then not spending the money and using that money to avoid cuts at home.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
verandi wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I just find it interesting that it's George Bush he wants -- not our current occupant.

And it's Bush 41!


I literally laughed out loud at this- Drew wasn't happy with the non-partisan direction the discussion was headed so he had to intervene. Good times.


What's your problem? Everyone loves Bush 41.



For many he represetns what America stands for.
 
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