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Subject: Help with units rss

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Jalmari Raippalinna
Finland
Kirkkonummi
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I just got fed with trying to figure out how to really play the game without flipping the rule book and charts all the time.

I felt this game could work nicely computerized, so I pulled out my development environment and started coding away, with intent of implementing whole ruleset initially and then expanding that with realtime system, command delays etc.

I think I cannot release this as is to public though when I get it done, perhaps I could get it done so that it requires some data from game to be entered.

So, I've implemented the terrain generation, cover system, action deck and I'm now in process of getting the unit system to work.

I'm in dire need to listing every unit type in this game and figure out traits those units have.

So far I've got following friendly unit types:
BN_HQ_LEADER
CO_HQ
CO_1ST_SGT
CO_XO
RUNNER
PLT_HQ
PLT
MG
ROCKET
MORTAR
ENGINEER
ARTY_FO
MTR_FO
FIRE_TEAM
ASSAULT_TEAM
PARALYZED
LITTER
CASUALTY

Also germans have unit types:
GERMAN_LEADER,
GERMAN_PLT,
GERMAN_AT,
GERMAN_IG,
GERMAN_MTR,
GERMAN_FLAK, (88mm)
GERMAN_ARTY_FO,
GERMAN_MTR_FO,
GERMAN_MG,
GERMAN_ROCKET,
GERMAN_SNIPER,
GERMAN_FIRE_TEAM,
GERMAN_ASSAULT_TEAM,
GERMAN_PARALYZED,
GERMAN_LITTER,
GERMAN_CASUALTIES

There seems to be quite many different types of units in this game, and after I got the basic units figured, I hit wall with Vehicle & AT chart.

Vehicles don't seem to have clear cut designation on which groups they belong and how they really work. This means that I'm not sure if I can consider AT, IG and FLAK as similar units with just some trait flags different from each other.

For example comparing german HMG Squad (A + Tripod, V range) and IG or Flak, is there really a difference? Except that IG and Flak can fire at vehicles and HMG has no effect against vehicles?

What do the modifiers in Range chart mean? Are they modifiers to NCM at different range? Does this modifier also have effect when firing against infantry targets? Eg. VOF for 50cal at V range would be H (-3) + 2 = -1. If there is higher VOF in terrain inflicted by another weapon after modifiers, do I use that instead of highest vof counter face value?

Can Anti-Tank weapons fire at infantry targets at all? Is all combat for weapons listed in AT Chart resolved in Vechicle-Aircraft phase or is combat against infantry targets resolved later in normal VOF segment? (.50 Cal is listed in Vechicle & AT Chart, which made me think about this)

Can I quick shot against infantry target?

Also I read about rockets that Panzerfaust can only be used against vehicle targets, does this apply to bazookas also?

I think I'm going to compose somekind of chart for everyone that lists most of this data when I get this figured. (For example, runner has one step of personnel meaning that it is unit that can be fired at, but if runner is fired at, can it convert to LAT as hit result, etc?)




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Jalmari Raippalinna
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Oh yeah, here's a picture of current state of play
 
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Andreas Krüger
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I have no experience with Vassal, so I don't know if it handles the game rules. But there is a FOF module for it:

http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Fields_of_Fire

 
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Steve Bishop
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Lytham St. Annes
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
I have no experience with Vassal, so I don't know if it handles the game rules. But there is a FOF module for it:

http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Fields_of_Fire



I don't think he's talking about Vassal, that just lets you play the game on your PC but will not make any rules interpretations for you.

If he does come up with a full blown PC version however that handles all the card draws, PC checks and enemy activity then i'm in for a £5iver.
.whistle

 
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Jalmari Raippalinna
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
I have no experience with Vassal, so I don't know if it handles the game rules. But there is a FOF module for it:

http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Fields_of_Fire



Yeah, I've used vassal as for playing the game, but as programmer I felt that best way to learn the game is to implement the ruleset into game engine

It really makes you think many rulecases at once while developing, not while you play (while playing, game engine is making rules decisions for you and if you think they are incorrect you can fix system later)
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Ben Hull
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What development environment are you using?

With units, an object oriented, inheritance and polymorphic approach would work well.

Implementing classes and sub-classes of units that inherit from the basic infantry unit object.

Base object -> infantry unit -> classes of infantry unit are: HQ, SQUAD, FO, WEAPONS TEAM, RUNNER, LAT -> each class then has a sub-class that implements the the specifics of a CO HQ versus a PLT HQ or a MG Team versus a Mortar Team.

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Jalmari Raippalinna
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Hey Ben! As my coding progresses into something more tanglible, I'd love to hear more comments from original designer too

benhull wrote:
What development environment are you using?

With units, an object oriented, inheritance and polymorphic approach would work well.


I'm using ActionScript 3.0 with Flex 4 SDK extensions with Robotlegs as MVC/IoC container.

Quote:

Implementing classes and sub-classes of units that inherit from the basic infantry unit object.

Base object -> infantry unit -> classes of infantry unit are: HQ, SQUAD, FO, WEAPONS TEAM, RUNNER, LAT -> each class then has a sub-class that implements the the specifics of a CO HQ versus a PLT HQ or a MG Team versus a Mortar Team.


That's about what I was doing, Didn't think though that HQ or Runner would be considered infantry unit in game term. I was splitting my US units as command units, infantry units, LATs and others.

Could you help me with those AT / Vehicle questions?
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Mark L
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jalava wrote:
Could you help me with those AT / Vehicle questions?

Well, it's been a while since I've posted here...

I found the vehicle rules to be fairly clear. I've played all the way through the Normandy campaign, so I think have a pretty good understanding of them when the US has tanks. Haven't yet encountered the NKPA's T-34s or used helos in Vietnam yet, tho. But with that in mind, here's my take at your questions:

Quote:
There seems to be quite many different types of units in this game, and after I got the basic units figured, I hit wall with Vehicle & AT chart.

Vehicles don't seem to have clear cut designation on which groups they belong and how they really work. This means that I'm not sure if I can consider AT, IG and FLAK as similar units with just some trait flags different from each other.

On the Vehicle and AT Weapons Chart, look at the Target Type column. It classifies units as Infantry, Vehicle, or Helo.

IMO, the Infantry types would be a sub-class of infantry, with additional AT capability which they can use vs. vehicles in the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase. Other than this AT capability, they function like any other infantry unit. Note also that the German guns (75 IG, 75 PAK, and 88) are listed as not Mobile, which I take to mean they can't move even as infantry units - tho they might still get withdrawn (presumably a truck or half-track tows them away).

Vehicle (and Helo) types should be a separate class from infantry, since they move and receive fire differently from infantry units. All vehicle movement and anti-vehicle combat occurs in a separate phase - the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase. Vehicles move only during this phase, tho they need to be "activated" during the Command Phase to do so, via command 4.2.1-i. Plus, they can move as far as they want to, trafficability permitting (7.3.1), whereas infantry only moves one card per command. All anti-vehicle fire - whether from an AT weapon or a VOF - is resolved during the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase as well, rather than the Mutual Combat Phase (more details below).

Quote:
What do the modifiers in Range chart mean? Are they modifiers to NCM at different range? Does this modifier also have effect when firing against infantry targets? Eg. VOF for 50cal at V range would be H (-3) + 2 = -1. If there is higher VOF in terrain inflicted by another weapon after modifiers, do I use that instead of highest vof counter face value?

Range modifiers apply only to AT fire - they reflect range/armor-penetration characteristics.

Quote:
Can Anti-Tank weapons fire at infantry targets at all? Is all combat for weapons listed in AT Chart resolved in Vechicle-Aircraft phase or is combat against infantry targets resolved later in normal VOF segment? (.50 Cal is listed in Vechicle & AT Chart, which made me think about this)

Any unit with a printed VOF can automatically lay down that VOF using the same rules and restrictions (e.g. PDF, intervening friendlies, etc.) as an infantry squad or MG team. This VOF will then affect infantry targets normally during the Mutual Combat Phase.

Units listed on the Vehicle and AT Weapons Chart can also use the AT Combat procedure (7.6, 7.7) vs. vehicles. All such fire occurs and is immediately resolved in the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase.

An example: the German 75mm PAK has an S-V VOF which it will use to engage any target that presents itself per the German targeting priorities. In addition, the PAK can also take an AT shot during the Vehicle Phase, without regard to PDF, at any Sherman tank that foolishly enters it's LOS.

Essentially all combat vs. vehicles is resolved in the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase, including any VOF in cards a vehicle occupies or enters during that phase (per 7.5). Use the AT Combat procedure (7.6) in all cases - tho for VOF attacks, the Gunnery Modifier and Move & Fire modifier are n/a.

OTOH, all combat vs. infantry is resolved in the Mutual Combat Phase, according to whatever VOF is present in the card. These attacks are resolved per 6.9 Combat Effects, which states: "Resolve all infantry (non-vehicle) combat in the Combat Effects Phase." [emphasis added] So ignore any vehicles - VOF vs. vehicles was already handled in the vehicle phase.

Quote:
Can I quick shot against infantry target?

Quick Shot applies only to AT fire (7.6).

Quote:
Also I read about rockets that Panzerfaust can only be used against vehicle targets, does this apply to bazookas also?

The specific rule you refer to (in section 6.2): "Panzerfausts (WWII German AT Rockets) may fire only at vehicles; all others may be used for both AT Combat and Infantry Combat." [emphasis added]

Hope that helps.



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Mark L
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A follow-up to my previous post:

zhredder wrote:
Essentially all combat vs. vehicles is resolved in the Mutual Vehicle-Aircraft Phase, including any VOF in cards a vehicle occupies or enters during that phase (per 7.5).

I just thought of an exception I would make to that. If a US vehicle triggers a PC marker, that PC marker isn't resolved until the Mutual Combat Phase, which is after the Vehicle Phase of course. But it only seems reasonable to allow a previously unknown enemy unit an ambush opportunity vs. a vehicle so exposed. Therefore, if that PC marker activates an enemy unit, I would allow it to make an immediate AT attack prior to the Combat Effects Segment, whether it uses an AT weapon or just VOF. I'm pretty sure that's not spelled out in the rules so it's essentially a house rule; but it only seems appropriate, IMO.

It's never happened in my games, tho, since I don't make a habit of leading with tanks - especially in bocage country.
 
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