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Subject: Squad Leaderesque skirmish game of multi periods. rss

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Michael Dorosh
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Commanus wrote:

So why are there no games like Squad leader for ... different periods in history ?



Because

a) there are (see Firefight)

and

b) the squad, as we know it, only became the prime tactical unit of maneuver in the 20th Century.
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Steve Bishop
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Commanus wrote:

So why are there no games like Squad leader for ... different periods in history ?



Because

a) there are (see Firefight)

and

b) the squad, as we know it, only became the prime tactical unit of maneuver in the 20th Century.



Right on the button mate, the lethality of weapons has led to a dispersal of forces on the battlefield. Hence we no longer march in column or phalanx to our doom.

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p55carroll
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There have been a few attempts at something like the game you're talking about, but at skirmish (one-on-one) scale rather than squad level per se. And often with miniatures.

Man to Man comes to mind. Gunslinger sorta fits. And then there are a whole slew of games by Two Hour Wargames (THW Game Design).
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mochara c
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Moving from WWII to modern conflicts there are a few choices.

The Lock 'N Load series has a handful of WWII games and expansions, and have also published games using essentially the same rules that cover Vietnam, Mogadishu '93 and The Falklands Islands conflicts at a Squad Leader-esque squad and individual leader scale.

Advanced Tobruk System works the same scale, more or less, and is primarily a WWII vessel, but expansions for Isreal 1948 (with a few scenarios from the 50's, 60's and 70's) and Dien Bien Phu are available. Not terribly "modern", really, but I get that post-WWII stuff tends to get that tag.
A Vietnam module and something called ATS: French Algeria is upcoming, as well.
For that matter, it occurs to me that all or most of the ATS items I mention are, or have been, available for use with ASL, as well.

An ATS treatment of Gettysburg has been in the works for a few years and, while the ACW is not my usual thing, I'm curious to see how that turns out, and am wondering how the ATS game engine will have to be tweaked to suit that era.
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Michael Dorosh
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Commanus wrote:
Skirmish warfare with a squad leader taste was what I was thinking.


I see what you are getting at now.

Trenchfoot gave it a go, and was not a success. I think mostly any game at that scale will just be really boring, and have a sameness to it. I guess I have to wonder what the hook is. With 20th Century warfare, it is the different weapons systems, or at least, that was what made Firepower and Man-to-Man so "appealing" (for those that could stomach the Rubik's Cube like charts and diagrams.)

For spear and sandals eras, I'm not so sure.

I really enjoyed Sniper! by the way, and even with the lesser detail vis a vis technical data, the scale was appropriate for the era. I'm not sure I would have had much fun leading 10 cavemen with clubs. I think imagination comes into play - I admit, that may just be personal opinion coming into play.

EDIT - I have no idea why I segued into man-to-man games there. My apologies. Rethinking the idea, I honestly can't think of a way to get a squad-based, company level system to work for other eras. Civil War? Not appropriate. Roman? Maybe for one side - could work in a solitaire setting - but how many games can you mow down barbarian hordes and call it fun?

Not seeing it myself, but of course, I doubt anyone saw Ambush! coming down the pike either. That's what makes such games great when they do arrive.
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Kurt Weihs
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There was Khyber Riflesin the magazine Wargamer many eons ago, but more than anything, it proved that small unit actions of the late 19th century were not well modelled at squad level.

For Napoleonic skirmish gaming you could look here:
Sharp Practice
It's kind of tongue-in-cheek but not a bad set of rules.

I have to agree with the others about the relevance of company level or smaller scale gaming.

Before the advent of cheap, rifled guns most games at skirmish level would model a few shots with a very low percentage chance of hitting another man-sized target. yawn.
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Martin Gallo
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Devil's Den or Rebel Yell (and the newer games by Richard Dengel) might work for you for the ACW period.

Fire Team for Modern era.

Marine: 2002 for the future?
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Robert Wesley
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How about this then? Action Front: Watchtower L@@K into some of their FREE P&P kind too.
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Kurt Weihs
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Woohoo! Congreve's Rockets! That would be a fun scenario. It sounds like you guys have a good thing going with Sharp Practice. I love the game for an afternoon of fun...it isn't serious Napoleonics, but I love the scale and don't want to paint the gazillion figures it would take to make the scale work on a Regimental level.

Another attempt at modelling pre-WW2 was Trenchfoot by GDW. It will be a tough one to find, but we had some fun with it. More than anything it showed the futility of going over the top when there was a machine gun in the opposing trench.
 
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Ernest Schubert
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Soldiers by SPI was more or less the 'PanzerBlitz' for early WWI. I have it, and can't remember playing it much. SPI also did games - PRESTAGS was the update, I have the older ones,,, Armageddon, Phalanx, Dark Ages, and the roman one who's name escapes me(was it Centurion?). These are the 'tactical' level games of their time. But hardly skirmish level.

If you don't have Gunslinger, then I'd recommend that as an example of what a skirmish game might look like... oh WAIT!

Another game I have is by Mayfair(I think) called "CRY HAVOC", it's sort of minitures with cardboard for Medieval warfare. That's probably hard to find now, real hard. Each unit is a single man, and it's absolutely skirmish level.
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Jens Hoppe
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Another tactical Napoleonics game would be Hougoumont from Command magazine.

The Defense of Rorke's Drift for simulating, well, Rorke's Drift.

Devil's Den as mentioned above for ACW, or alternatively Little Round Top for an even lower scale using a similar system.

Going back further to the middle ages, Cry Havoc certainly looks squad leader'ish with its hex maps and counters representing individual men. AFAIR, the game is on the simpler side, though.





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Martin Gallo
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Cry Havoc is man-to-man. Each counter represents one person.

Simple but terrific game.
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p55carroll
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Commanus wrote:
Patrick, I have played a lot of miniatures games at the skirmish level, Sharps practice is set up on my table as I type. The hex and counter experience was what I was thinking of. A small unit skirmish at what ever level appropriate for the period. A game based on a Squad Leader type of frame work. Perhaps the genre is not conducive to what I envisage?
Thanks Brian.

I guess after Squad Leader made its big splash, there were two ways it could develop: (1) toward variety of the kind you're describing or (2) toward ASL. Most fans seem happy that it went in the latter direction.

I think Lock 'n Load is a series that kinda starts over and goes somewhat in the other direction. So far, it only goes forward in time from WW2, into more recent conflicts. It could conceivably cover episodes from earlier wars, but it doesn't (yet).
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Michael Dorosh
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
... after Squad Leader made its big splash, there were two ways it could develop: (1) toward variety of the kind you're describing or (2) toward ASL. Most fans seem happy that it went in the latter direction.


By default. We didn't get to see what would happen had "the other" occurred.
 
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Sam H
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I recently had a chance to try out Firepower, it's a squad level skirmish game where counters depict individual soldiers. Very detailed. It covers multiple conflicts between 1965 and 1985.
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Mike Windsor
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I was thinking that you might have some luck on a squad level with an engagement like Rorke's Drift or the Alamo.

Most of what I can recall in the Ancients level is either man-to-man (gladiators, which has really caught my interest lately) or larger formations. I would note that there are a slew of ancient battles where the numbers cited at the time are absurdly inflated, and that the battles might have only involved a couple of thousand men a side. Therefore, in some systems, your ancients units might essentially be large squads (50 - 100 men for a peasant levy to 30 - 50 trained men-at-arms). A number of ancients systems keep the exact number of men in a counter vague for this reason, but instead use each counter to represent some level of coherent fighting force. (That all sounds like the old TV hamburger commercial, "It's in there; it's in there," so I'm not sure any of that helps.)
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Jeff K
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bishuk wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Commanus wrote:

So why are there no games like Squad leader for ... different periods in history ?



Because

a) there are (see Firefight)

and

b) the squad, as we know it, only became the prime tactical unit of maneuver in the 20th Century.



Right on the button mate, the lethality of weapons has led to a dispersal of forces on the battlefield. Hence we no longer march in column or phalanx to our doom.



+1

For 19th century warfare, it does not make sense to reduce the unit past the regimental level, as this was probably the smallest portion which could actually deliver any kind of useful firepower. One man with a musket was largely ineffective, so it took many such concentrating their firepower to give you your basic unit, which was really more or less equivalent to a squad or platoon. So, if you are looking for the period equivalent, they already exist in numerous titles. Notably the Great Battles of the ACW series, is pretty much the tactical equivalent of SL. Also, AH Gettysburg has an interesting system which allows you to fiddle with the shape of your lines which is about as granular as you're going to get. Also, WV and its progeny, and many many others.

The American Rev Series from GMT is fairly close to the same scale, and may be an even better match for what you are looking for.

For the futuristic, Starship Troopers or the upcoming remake: On the Bounce might fill the bill.
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Jeff K
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Also another belated thought about the GBACW series. The mini-game Churubusco has a pretty SL-ish look if you gander at the map:

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Mike Windsor
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Quote:
For 19th century warfare, it does not make sense to reduce the unit past the regimental level, as this was probably the smallest portion which could actually deliver any kind of useful firepower.


That's correct on large battlefields, but maybe not for raids or ship boarding actions, now that I think it through. Not sure if any such games, but games that cover 17th - 19th century raids and ship boarding would need to use squad-like groups and leaders. That's what we need, a game that covers the "special forces" actions of that era (although the "special forces" are likely sailors or pirates.
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Robert Wesley
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arrrh "Ship to Ship" eh? There is this one: Swashbuckler


and to a much lesser extent, then this too: Broadsides & Boarding Parties


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Chris Nasipak
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GMT's "Great Battles of History" series gives me a nice feel to it akin to what I got from SL. Where individual units maneuver on their own or in groups, and an individual counter's activities matter compared to the whole. Sure, each is going to represent a hundred men or so, rather than the 10-15 of an SL squad, but they've isolated it down to the smallest unit of maneuver in use at the time and set it up so that historic tactics make sense. Amusingly enough, the hex size is even a close match for SL, IIRC.

SPQR, the Julius Caesar games, Great Battles of Alexander, etc.
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Trenchfoot gave it a go, and was not a success.

Apart from the fact, that in my very subjective opinion Trenchfoot fucking rules, the tangible World War One squad level game is actually Landships! Tactical Weapons Innovations 1914-1918. Okay, platoon level really.
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Robert Wesley
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all righty then! FIRST of all: #A-mass of everything you'll require, and then some more of whatever you wish to include also, with vessels from these: Pirates of the Spanish Main for those



and utilize that somehow within such: Barbary Coast War



along with 'minis' in place for this upon which to conduct LAND "Clashes!": Clash for a Continent since I have them RISK assortment(s) and copious 'Scrabble' tiles upon which to amount plenty for UNITS out of them overall. I even detached the "flag bearer" from the artillery to then produce ARMY 'markers' or LEADER(s), although it does also require multiple sets to have any diverse sub-ordinate(s) rank & file as well.
whistle
 
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Robert Wesley
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Commanus wrote:

Dreaded Pirate Wesley, Im in. Where do I find a copy and where are the Marines?

Brian.
How about some OTHER(S) producing scaled 'deck plans' for these 'vessels' and allow with printing such OUT, then using varying 'scaled' miniatures even? In this manner, whatever you did HAVE on hand can be accommodated with the proper sized proportionate SHIP of anything. You want GI Joe-sized? go for it!
arrrh
 
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Michael Dorosh
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Simon Mueller wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Trenchfoot gave it a go, and was not a success.

Apart from the fact, that in my very subjective opinion Trenchfoot fucking rules, the tangible World War One squad level game is actually Landships! Tactical Weapons Innovations 1914-1918. Okay, platoon level really.


You appear hell-bent for leather to figure out exactly what the bounds of the moderation policy are (microbadges included). Good luck with your quest.
 
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