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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Pegasus Expansion» Forums » Variants

Subject: Redesigning the Treachery Skill deck rss

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Matt Vollick
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I'm not a huge fan of the Treachery Skill cards and I'm looking for ideas to include in a new set of Treachery Skill cards for use in PBF games here on BGG.

Ideally I'd like the new skill deck to have the same distribution as all the other skill decks with the inclusion of Pegasus and Exodus, so three 0's, nine 1's, seven 2's, five 3's, three 4's, two 5's and one 6 for a total of 30 cards.

Also I'd like to incorporate some effects that are simply triggered by the card being in a skill check while if the check is reckless the ability is amplified.

I have a couple ideas I'm working on but I'd like to hear other suggestions.
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Mark Thomason
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Could you start us off by explaining what you're looking for? I mean, what issues do you have with the Treachery cards in the game? What aspects of them don't you like... that way we'll know what direction to start looking for ideas. Maybe toss out the underpinnings of your ideas too, to get people started?
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Todd Warnken
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6 - God's Blessing

Skill Check: All Human players discard a random card and all Cylon players draw 2 cards.
Reckless: All Cylon players draw a Super Crisis card.
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Carl Bussema
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I'm typing from my phone so forgive the lack of punctuation and formatting and templating

0-seeds of doubt. Current player discards a skill card
6-divine intervention. play before cards added to check: cylons may play any number of cards into this check. If the check fails, lose 1 morale.
5/4/3 one each like crit sit-heroic sacrifice: destroy all raiders in one space area (>0) to activate all raiders in one adjacent sector twice

Maybe more tomorrow ... Gotta sleep now.

Ps who do we have to bribe to get bgg mobile?
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Carl Bussema
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My zero should say skill check.less work to type new post than edit
 
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Jason Beck
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6: Consult the Hybrid- Action. You may look at the top cards of the destination and crisis decks and place them on the top or bottom. Then, draw a crisis card and resolve it.

5: Activate Sleeper Agent- Movement. If a character is in Sickbay, you may damage Galactica.
 
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Carl Bussema
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1/2 (1 each) efficient engineering: action: fully repair one damaged basestar. Reckless: (like broadcast location)
My earlier card heroic sacrifice is an action.

I'm thinking of something like each human discards a random skill card and each cylon draws a treachery. Without sabotage, humans holding treachery isn't a big deal. Now is this the only effect on the card? Maybe, but I like not having to wait for a reckless check, yet we still need reckless abilities or cars like jury rigged are just too good.

It's tempting to make a card that activates ships again but with the cylon fleet board, such a card can be as good as a super crisis, but activating only one type of ship is not worth an action. Maybe as a reckless effect... But if cfb isn't on play it's easy to have it do nothing. Maybe a reckless: damage galactica.
 
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Matt Vollick
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I'm considering giving some treachery cards a discard drawback so that if they are discarded something bad happens either to the player discarding or Galactica in general.

ie. If this card is discarded you must discard another card.
 
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Jason Beck
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That seems awfully harsh, doesn't it, turning it into a double-discard?

I suspect something like that would disproportionately affect Apollo, for one. Also, this would make the random discard effects of crises even harsher, since you would then have the potential to lose even more than listed.

(Plus, if it was a random discard and you had more than one Treachery card in your hand, you could end up discarding even more.)
 
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Matt Vollick
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Colonial One wrote:
That seems awfully harsh, doesn't it, turning it into a double-discard?

I suspect something like that would disproportionately affect Apollo, for one. Also, this would make the random discard effects of crises even harsher, since you would then have the potential to lose even more than listed.

(Plus, if it was a random discard and you had more than one Treachery card in your hand, you could end up discarding even more.)


My suggestion is that Treachery cards should be hard to get rid off. Too often players can simply use Treachery cards to shuffle between ships.

Players can also demonstrate humanity by dumping their treachery cards which forces Cylon players to do the same or stick out.

If Treachery cards have a penalty for getting rid of them it might make some players think about keeping them, clogging up hands etc.

Lastly, all cards will affect different characters disproportionately. Discard crises already are a nasty thing for Apollo, these won't make things any easier for him.

Another idea I have for a discard triggering ability is to roll a die, 1-2 Place a basestar infront of Galactica,
 
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I don't disagree with any of the points you've made regarding discarding Treachery and it being too easy, etc..

I guess having a *double* discard seemed a little harsh, especially if it also opened you up to damage to Galactica with sabotage.

It would be interesting to have a die roll, as you say, though. Maybe:

1-2 Damage Galactica
3-4 Discard an additional skill card
5-6 Pick a revealed Cylon; they draw 2 skill cards of their choice
7-8 No effect

That way there isn't something terrible *every* time, but there's still enough risk that you might even want to spend an SP or something.
 
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Carl Bussema
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How about "when a human player discards treachery, shuffle that card into the destiny deck instead of discarding it."

(I think I stole that from Razor Cut. So if I did, it's totally their idea. If not, well, they should have thought of it first!)

Now with treachery (in this variant) having higher values, skill check effects, and hopefully more reckless effects, you probably don't want it in destiny.

To recap my ideas in one place since I have a real keyboard now... (minor changes and templating cleanups)

0 "Seeds of Doubt" Skill check: The current player discards one skill card.
6 "Divine Intervention" Play before cards added to a skill check. Cylons may play any number of cards into this check. If the check fails, lose 1 morale.
5/4/3 (1x each) "Heroic Sacrifice" Action: Select a space area with at least one raider in it and destroy all raiders in that area. For each raider destroyed, select a raider from an an adjacent space area to activate twice.
1/2 (1x each) "Efficient Engineering" Action: Fully repair one damaged basestar. Reckless Skill Check: If two basestars are on the board, fully repair all basestars; else place one basestar in front of Galactica, and two civilian ships behind Galactica. (Resolve only one of this ability per skill check.)

New ideas:
1/2 (common) "They Have a Plan" Action or Reckless Skill Check: Each human player discards one skill card. Then each player discards another skill card or draws one treachery. (Resolve only one of this ability per skill check.)
3/4/5 (common) "Misdirection" Action: Choose a human player, then either force that player to pass all titles he holds to the highest other player in the line(s) of succession, or move that player to any other non-hazardous location on the same area (this may move someone out of the Brig or Detention).
 
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Chris J Davis
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InfoCynic wrote:
How about "when a human player discards treachery, shuffle that card into the destiny deck instead of discarding it."

(I think I stole that from Razor Cut. So if I did, it's totally their idea. If not, well, they should have thought of it first!)


You did. And we did.
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I like the idea of redesigning the Treachery deck: I've tried to do it myself, since to be honest, without the Razor Cut house rule (once per turn the highest valued treachery card discarded by a human is shuffled into the destiny deck) they're pretty tame, and even with that they're still not much of a threat.

So... make them have bad things for humans when they have them, so they aren't just free cards to discard, but also be more powerful for Cylons so they're actually useful to pick up if you want to sabotage Skill Checks.

However, I don't think they should mimic the way normal skill cards work: They're fundamentally different already in that they're bad for humans, good for Cylons, and being usually weaker than others yet almost always negative means there's some decision on whether to take Treachery or another skill type. Make them the same as other decks, and you're just guaranteeing Cylons will always want Treachery, and possibly make them too powerful.

Here were my ideas. This was made to be a supplement to the deck (you'd end up with a pretty hefty Treachery deck, mind you, around 46 cards and 12 different types), but you can easily rearrange some values and quantities, keeping I'd say By Your Command and Special Destiny, and make a deck of 30 like other Exodus decks.

Quote:
Raider assault (4) (4 cards):
Play whenever raiders are activated. Add 1 to all attack rolls for raiders during this activation.

Heavy losses (reckless 3) (4 cards):
Reckless Skill check: If the skill check fails by more than 6, activate the fail effect of the skill check twice.

Battlestar Immobilisation (reckless 2) (2 cards):
Reckless Skill check: If this is a crisis skill check, skip the jump preparation step of the crisis.

Dangerous tactics (1) (4 cards):
If this skill card is discarded by a human player, place two Civilian Ships behind Galactica

Sow discord (2) (3 cards):
Action: Draw two treachery cards. Then each other player draws one treachery card.

Political dissent (1) (3 cards):
If this skill card is discarded by a human player, the president must discard two random Quorum Cards.
 
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Matt Vollick
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There are some really great ideas in these posts. I won't be posting my final version (I'm still working on them) until after the first PBF game that involves these cards, because I won't be telling the players what the cards can do until they actually see them.
 
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First things first.... I have a "pyschic" prediction that some of these ideas may end up in the next BSG expansion

5s and 6s might be too much for Treachery. I figured the whole point they only went up to 3 in Pegasus while everything else up to 5 was to make it a harder choice between picking Treachery that's always negative and one of the regulars that could be higher in value. In Pegasus, there were slightly greater odds that you get a 3-brown, but the regular decks could get you 5 of the 4s or 5s. With Exodus thrown in, it seems the odds are even again.

Anyways, I don't role play, so here are some ideas that I'll fill in names later if I think of anything (or if I can come up with better ones)....

three 0's, nine 1's,
seven 2's, five 3's,
three 4's, two 5's and one 6

0 - misinformation
1) Skill check: If at least 2 Treachery cards have been played into this skill check (3 Treachery cards if playing a 5p to 7p game), reduce the total strength played into this skill check by 3. *

* You could instead increase the difficulty of the skill check by the same number, so that would mess with Iron Will too. That number may need to be adjusted to be more balanced.

2) Skill check: all treachery cards count as double strength. Cheap shot off Establish Network, but I think it'll still work out elegantly.

3) Skill check: All Treachery cards count as negative strength if At Any Cost was played
This may be too circumstancial, but perhaps someone could improve upon it

1 -
1) Add a Treachery and another skill card from a different skill set into the Destiny deck. Then shuffle the Destiny deck.

2) action: Name another cylon player. That cylon player may move. You may then take another action
* This will be more useful if I can think of another card that can combo with it... like some controlled way for cylons to get extra actions.

3/4/5 - Taunt the Colonial Fleet
1) Movement: look at any human player's hand. Then steal one skill card of your choice (put it into your hand).

3/4/5 - High Efficiency
1) Movement: All Raiders attacking this turn will damage or destroy vipers with the result being one less then they normally are respectively.

6 -
Reveal the next 3 crisis cards. Resolve all the cylon ship activation step in any order, but skip the "prepare for jump" icons. Skip all other skill checks and/or effects on the crisis card as well.
* yes, if you flip up 3 cylon attack cards for non-CFB games you're screwed, although it may be worthwhile to tweak this so that ONLY step #1 of those cards will get executed.


Engineering Blueprints
Play this card whenever Galactica/Pegasus takes damage (except from Basestar Bridge location). You may choose an additional damage token when resolving one instance of damage. Limit one {whatever the name of this card if I decide to change it later on} may be used per turn.

Colonial One wrote:

(Plus, if it was a random discard and you had more than one Treachery card in your hand, you could end up discarding even more.)
You could always just restrict it to that only one type of that card may be activated per turn, like the original Reckless Skill Check cards and the new 0-strength skill card text effects. Or XOs.
 
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Matt Vollick
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I've completed the cards and after my next PBF game I'll post the cards if anyone is interested, The card titles I have are pretty lame; the one's I've stolen from others are much better.

 
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J Chav
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Treachery cards higher then 3 (possibly 4) would be very nasty. The whole reason they only range from 1-3 is they are almost always negative for skill checks. If you made some higher then cylons would always opt to draw Treachery as one of their two cards.

That's just my two cents.
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Carl Bussema
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And great, they can spike one check until five turns go by. Plus humans have at any cost and investigative committees
 
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InfoCynic wrote:
And great, they can spike one check until five turns go by. Plus humans have at any cost and investigative committees
Well, At Any Cost will be known ahead of time if it's in effect or not, so that at least you can kind of plan against.
 
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Matt Vollick
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Danath wrote:
Treachery cards higher then 3 (possibly 4) would be very nasty. The whole reason they only range from 1-3 is they are almost always negative for skill checks. If you made some higher then cylons would always opt to draw Treachery as one of their two cards.


Well Cylons almost always draw Treachery anyway but the cards still suck and Treachery should be very nasty. Nasty to have it as a human and nasty for the Cylons to use it against the humans.
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Carl Bussema
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And the average value of a card from a full deck with Exodus and Pegasus is only barely above 2.0, so even if the Cylons are drawing treachery, it's still not that likely that they can really spike the check--they might have drawn one of three zeroes after all!
 
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Matt Vollick
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InfoCynic wrote:
And the average value of a card from a full deck with Exodus and Pegasus is only barely above 2.0, so even if the Cylons are drawing treachery, it's still not that likely that they can really spike the check--they might have drawn one of three zeroes after all!


It's the variance not the mean that will kill human players. They will overshoot checks because a player might have played a 6 - Hand of God into the skill check and that will leave them short for other checks.

I know some players won't like it but I'm all for experimenting. As soon as my current game is finished (and the Dune Werewolf game is done) I'll start a game with my new treachery deck and maybe something else to surprise a few players. If anyone's interested shoot me a geekmail.
 
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Matt Vollick
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If anyone is interested in checking out the new treachery deck you can follow along with Battlestar Treachery.
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For what it's worth, I agree with Danath and ackmondual. Treachery already provides special effects and is (almost) universally negative. If the Treachery deck also has the same card strength as the others, there's not a single drawback left.

I'll be watching how your game unfolds, and I'll write some more on this topic, when I find the time.
 
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