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Subject: Is it Worth the Trouble? rss

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Mark Evans
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I will generally nix a game right away if I think the rules a sloppy. My first run through the example of play showed me that the rules were pretty weak. For some reason I feel like giving this game a second chance. There are 17 pages of rules entries in this forum. That tells me that the rules are very underexplained and/or confusing, but the game is good enough that people deal with it.

So, is it worth the trouble of nailing down all the soft spots in the rules with Q&A, or is this another hopeless game?
 
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bob kalinowski
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Mark,

I am NOT an unbiased party, but will make three comments:

1. Ensure you have the updated, Living Rules from GMT, also posted as files on this thread. Get the Aug 2009 Rules, and the Playbook I just posted yesterday, which has not appeared on the files list yet -- Oct 2009. This corrects several minor errors in the Example of Play.

2. 17 pages of rules posts -- you will find a hefty amount of these are from one person. Many of them are examinations of very unlikely to extremely unlikely situations, which would only result from a string of further unlikely percursors. So, either this person is enjoying making me jump through hoops ringing out game situations that are about as likely to occur as you getting hit by a plane, or he understands the depth of the game, and is really into it.

As an aside, if you just IGNORE the Diplomacy choices, and pick/assume choice A for everyone, 90% of the diplomacy ambiguity goes away. Just PLAY A! Learn the Supply rules, and copy the Sequence of Play and follow it step by step. These are the keys to having the game go smoothly, and understand the implications of what you can and can't do on map.


3. This is the most accurate game on the Seven Years War in Europe ever done. It's not light weight, it's not beer and pretzels, it wasn't made for Eurogamers. It was made for wargamers who want a Strat game on the SYW that does the job. That said, it seems to fall both ways on comments; the game's fans appreciate how much is in it, but that in comparison to some other "heavy" games and heavy CDGs, it is not that heavy.

Others say "There's too much in it, so it sucks." Fair enough. I didn't design it for the second group; I designed it for the first.

P.S. -- if you are an ASL and Empire of the Sun fan, I have no doubt you can handle this!

Take care -- bob
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Mark Evans
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Bob,

Thanks for taking time to reply to my email. I had to laugh when you said 'unbiased'.

I just ran across some really simple things that didn't seem to be explained well. How to move, how to fight, how to lay siege... It made me worry about how some of the details would look.

I will give it a spin. I assume you will be hanging around for more Q&A. I really haven't run into the diplomacy problem yet.
 
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Mattwran
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Everyone will have a different opinion on this of course, but my group has found the rules pretty clear (except the diplomacy chart, but that deficiency is well-known and cleared up somewhat by this):

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/59867/com-diplomacy-co...

The challenge in my opinion is the density of the rules, not the lack of clarity. There are many interlocking pieces so to figure out whether a move you have mind will 'work' or would be a good idea might take you looking up rules in several sections. The sequence of play is absolutely essential, but the rules themselves are not organized according to the sequence of the play so that can take a bit of an adjustment.
 
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bob kalinowski
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Mark,

HA, I didn't notice I'd forgotten the "NOT" until now. Now you have the Living Rules reply from me.
 
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Mark Evans
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Thanks guys. I will give it a spin. You will see me in Rules section in a little while.
 
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beresford dickens
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bobkalinowski wrote:
17 pages of rules posts -- you will find a hefty amount of these are from one person. Many of them are examinations of very unlikely to extremely unlikely situations, which would only result from a string of further unlikely percursors. So, either this person is enjoying making me jump through hoops ringing out game situations that are about as likely to occur as you getting hit by a plane, or he understands the depth of the game, and is really into it.


Does he mean me? ninja

Don't worry Bob, I will be out of your hair soon as I will flit on to another game from my collection or possibly the new TOI expansion. Since the gloves are off though, I must say in my defence (or defense for you Americans):

1. If I am paying money for car(d)board and paper I want the intellectual content to come from the design team. I don't want to be making it up myself.

2. Some of the questions I have asked are 'unlikely what-ifs'. Most of them however are situations that have sprung from limited solo play. I sometimes wonder if other people PLAY these games or if they just put them on the bookcase and lovingly polish them from time to time.

3. You have said yourself that it is difficult to follow all the rulings that you and Chris have made through CSW and BGG. Nobody has consolidated them into a FAQ. Some of the stuff I commented on years ago, like the correlation between steps and SPs, is still not clear. And writing this I've just realised that a full-strength 1 SP line cav unit should probably count as 2 SPs for Attrition. Aaaargghh!

4. You have admitted yourself that the game is designed around AAA diplomacy, and anything else will lead to anomalies. Now that isn't my fault, is it.

To the original poster, the game doesn't require nearly as much referring back to the rules as ASL and if you stick to AAA Diplomacy then most of the problems have been ironed out. Be prepared to search the BGG and CSW forums for some of the problems though.
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Dampenon Fabien
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Hello.

I have to said that I enjoy more a game when I know well the background.

It was not the case with seven years war, I only knew it was the first "world" war and France did it poorly

So, I have bought some books about these troubled times.

Now, I can confirm the game is really the best simulations of all aspects of this war and so, it's not a beer and bretzels game.

Rules are complete (and not "monster" rules,accounting to the scale and details of the game) and well written (great support of the designer on BGG forums), counters are gorgeous, map is a little dark but is functionnal, and you have plenty of scenarios, what else ?

In fact, I compare this war with napoleonic wars (only forty years later) and it's like comparing WWI to WWII, a slow war with fortifications playing a major role. And a lot of players prefer movement wars to siege wars.

Eventually, I think it's a great game (even more in multiplayer) but you have to fight against the learning curve.

And I don't say that because I win my first game with the French

 
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Martin Gallo
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drmark64 wrote:
So, is it worth the trouble of nailing down all the soft spots in the rules with Q&A, or is this another hopeless game?


I found it to be a very worthwhile experience.
 
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P. Al Williams
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This game is well worth the effort. Frankly this is one of the finer war games Ive played. Enormous fun.

As stated before, the rules are more dense than complex. There are a lot of moving pieces to what is happening, but they make sense.

 
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bob kalinowski
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Yes, that would be you,Beresford. laugh But to second his Brit defence, Beresford's points are all valid. He has been a keen observer with an uncanny knack for discovering every medium, small, and minute gap in the rules and their relation to each other. COM is certainly no perfect animal. In the larger sense I am impressed and grateful Beresford has studied it so closely, even if I am wincing at times when the need to put on my thinking cap and extrapolate well "off the map" on rules nuances runs afoul of my schedule or mental endurance. He keeps me on my toes, even if that means I'm sore from standing on my toes too long. soblue
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Mark Evans
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bobkalinowski wrote:
Yes, that would be you,Beresford. laugh But to second his Brit defence, Beresford's points are all valid. He has been a keen observer with an uncanny knack for discovering every medium, small, and minute gap in the rules and their relation to each other. COM is certainly no perfect animal. In the larger sense I am impressed and grateful Beresford has studied it so closely, even if I am wincing at times when the need to put on my thinking cap and extrapolate well "off the map" on rules nuances runs afoul of my schedule or mental endurance. He keeps me on my toes, even if that means I'm sore from standing on my toes too long. soblue


Just include him in your next playtest group (and me) and two of the biggest rules fanatics will be out of your hair.
 
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