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Subject: Memoir '44 Vs. Tide of Iron rss

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Matthew Bearden
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I am thinking about getting a real world war themed game.

Now the war type games that i have are
Star Craft The Board Game
FFG's Civilization
Stratego
Risk
Warhammer 40k (but this isn't something that i play anymore nor do i want to)

I don't mind depth in a game or its rule sets so lots of rules are not a problem but i want a Non "war game" that feels like a Real war game.
Cost and value is also a big factor for me.
If it has a large price tag , douse it live up to that as far as value.

Also i am big on not having a re-themed game that i allready have so based on what i have which of these two are different enough for me to have in my collection.
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Matthew Bearden
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Well I am a Mini lover myself so chits and things like that do not do it for me.

That is really why i am drawn to these two games.
 
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Dennis Engilis
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Both are very good games but very different ...

Memoir '44 - very simple and quick (30-45 minutes) - orders given to some units each turn based on cards in hand (use and draw one per turn) can be frustrating if you cannot do what you want - uses special dice with icons - hex board with terrain features added for each of many battles - many figures - many expansions - there is also an ancients game (Command & Colors), a civil war game (Battlecry) - I even painted the minis for this one), and two fantasy games (BattleLore & Battles of Westeros) that use the same system - Even with its limitations I really enjoy this game because it is so fun, easy, and quick.

Tide of Iron - much more complex and long (2-4 hours) - take turns taking several actions each round - several rounds each turn until all units have acted - modular board with terrain tiles for many different battles - more different kinds of figures/units - more options to chose from - a few expansions - I like this one too but do not get to play it as often. Also fun but much deeper and involved.
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Kent Reuber
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In Tide of Iron, units are squads. As such, you have more detailed rules. Units in Memoir are more abstract but at larger level, usually closer to companies and battalions. So, play in Memoir is more abstract.

I've never played Tide of Iron, but I play a lot of Memoir and other Commands and Colors games.

One advantage of Memoir is that there is a new Online computer version (in beta, but quite functional) where you can play against an AI or against other opponents.
 
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Matthew Bearden
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i Have 1960 the making of the president and i like the game play in that one. I bring that up because it looks like it and Twilight Struggle are brothers.

And also when when i say "real war game" i am talking about the more traditional war games that are more simulations than Fun board game.

Memoir '44 would be a game i could see seeing the table more but is the game experience enough?

Like playing the bigger games i have (star craft, ffg's civ ,descent, Arkaham Horror , Android and so on) (i just realized all of my long more epic games re ffg) they always leave you with a "wow" kind of filling.
That "wow" factor is why i love games , and i know this sounds like i only like big long games , thats just not the case.

My favorite games are my more family games (dominion**, Agricola, Power Grid, stone age, Ect ect.

With that said i guess i am conflicted with these two games.

Where is the value in these games I.E. cost , bits , experience ,& re-playability?

 
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Hunga Dunga
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My sense is that you're ready to go beyond games like M'44 and ToI.

You just have to get over your aversion to cardboard counters! (It doesn't take that long.)

I'd suggest one of MMP/The Gamers SCS series, or A Victory Denied by MMP.

If you like tactical games, Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943 may be the ticket. Extra large counters, mounted maps, and some real slugfests once you start playing the tank scenarios.
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Memoir'44 is one of my favourite games so I'm obviously going to recommend it to you. I have played Tide of Iron once and although it was certainly a good game I can easily say that I very much prefer Memoir'44.
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Matthew Bearden
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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! Kursk 1943 says it is for 1-4 players , now i don't do solo games much but the fact that the game offers that is nice.
How is the solo play in this game?
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Hunga Dunga
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GogTad wrote:
How is the solo play in this game?

It works well! Good fun!
 
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fwiw, ToI has some pretty good beginner scenarios on the FFG website. You can speed up setup by planning the squads on both sides, then letting your opponent choose which squad to play.
 
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Leslie Taylor
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Memoir: if you don't like it you only wasted $35 to $50. If you love it you can buy up the million awesome expansions.

With Tide of Iron, if you don't like it you're out $65 to $80 bucks.

I got Memoir with the Eastern Front expansion, so it cost as much as Tide of Iron. I do not regret my choice, and love playing Memoir whenever I have a chance.

My main suggestion is go play Memoir '44 online. It's free to sign up and play some matches. If the cards don't piss you off, then it's the game for you. If you think the cards are too luck based, go play the game where you "roll fifteen dice."
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I've been having this same internal debate. I see M'44 everywhere and I played the online version. I do like it but agree the cards can be frustrating. War can be frustrating like that, you get orders you must follow or orders don't come through, believe me I know. I didn't really like it that you can't immediately fire back at attackers it just seems un-realistic. However, overall I like the game. It is quick and I can see me getting to play it quite often as it only requires 1 other player.

ToI intrigues me as I read it offers more choice and I like that. However, I am new to this site and don't really have a set group of gamers that would be into rules heavy games. I recognize that there are heavier games but to the average person these games are very rules heavy. I do hope to meet some real game geeks and play some hard core games. I just read about Battle for Baghdad looks hard core and very interesting.

I too love the minis!
 
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David Bezio
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GogTad wrote:
Warhammer 40k (but this isn't something that i play anymore nor do i want to)


From a different angle that might (or might not) help.

I was a rabid Warhammer Fantasy Battles player in the late 90s. I played WFB exclusively for 8 years, once or twice a week. Oddly enough, one I got burned out on the game I REALLY got burned out. After that I never wanted to play the game again…and haven’t for about 10 years now.

I did, however, still like war games and miniature games and wanted to capture the same good feelings I had with WFB without all the excessive involvement, complications, expense (I won’t even tell you how much I dropped on GW miniatures in 8 years!), and competitiveness (I’m competitive…but some Warhammer players have real problems).

Several years back I discovered Memoir 44s sister game, Battlelore. After a lot of debate I picked it up…and have never looked back. IMHO it’s everything fun about a game like WFB with none of the bad. It’s faster, more light hearted, more compact, easier to just pick-up-and-play, and IMHO a much more tactical and challenging game.

On top of that, I still had miniatures to paint. Just enough to keep me busy without costing me any extra. If you are still a miniature hobbyist, you can build a 3D game board like I (and many others) have done (I can send links to pics and thread is you care to see them and can’t find them yourself on the Battlelore forum).

I know this thread isn’t about Battlelore. What I’m saying is that if you feel the same way about W40K as I do about WFB, you may find Memoir 44 to be the perfect game for you right now. Relatively cheap, lots of expansions, quick, easy, yet challenging and tactical. There are miniatures to paint (if you like) and terrain to build (if you like)…and you don’t have to handle them like eggshells when you play.

On top of this, the game can be played with anyone. You can teach the basic rules in 15 minutes, and the rest during play. By the second game you will be facing a challenging opponent. If you want to face more experienced opponents, the game has a huge fan base.

I haven’t played Tide of Iron, so this might not be fair to say, but I eliminated it from my list simply because it is obviously much more costly (base game), involved, time consuming, difficult to learn and teach…for basically the same board/wargame experience.
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Matthew Bearden
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grubman wrote:
GogTad wrote:
Warhammer 40k (but this isn't something that i play anymore nor do i want to)


From a different angle that might (or might not) help.

I was a rabid Warhammer Fantasy Battles player in the late 90s. I played WFB exclusively for 8 years, once or twice a week. Oddly enough, one I got burned out on the game I REALLY got burned out. After that I never wanted to play the game again…and haven’t for about 10 years now.

I did, however, still like war games and miniature games and wanted to capture the same good feelings I had with WFB without all the excessive involvement, complications, expense (I won’t even tell you how much I dropped on GW miniatures in 8 years!), and competitiveness (I’m competitive…but some Warhammer players have real problems).

Several years back I discovered Memoir 44s sister game, Battlelore. After a lot of debate I picked it up…and have never looked back. IMHO it’s everything fun about a game like WFB with none of the bad. It’s faster, more light hearted, more compact, easier to just pick-up-and-play, and IMHO a much more tactical and challenging game.

On top of that, I still had miniatures to paint. Just enough to keep me busy without costing me any extra. If you are still a miniature hobbyist, you can build a 3D game board like I (and many others) have done (I can send links to pics and thread is you care to see them and can’t find them yourself on the Battlelore forum).

I know this thread isn’t about Battlelore. What I’m saying is that if you feel the same way about W40K as I do about WFB, you may find Memoir 44 to be the perfect game for you right now. Relatively cheap, lots of expansions, quick, easy, yet challenging and tactical. There are miniatures to paint (if you like) and terrain to build (if you like)…and you don’t have to handle them like eggshells when you play.

On top of this, the game can be played with anyone. You can teach the basic rules in 15 minutes, and the rest during play. By the second game you will be facing a challenging opponent. If you want to face more experienced opponents, the game has a huge fan base.

I haven’t played Tide of Iron, so this might not be fair to say, but I eliminated it from my list simply because it is obviously much more costly (base game), involved, time consuming, difficult to learn and teach…for basically the same board/wargame experience.


WOW this is what i needed, i do think this is the way i will go.
NOW as for a new question.
Battlelore or Memoir '44?
Is there a real difference other than theme?

I know Battlelore is fantasy and this all started talking about real world style wargames, but if it is a better system then it is the way i need to go.
 
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Merric Blackman
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GogTad wrote:
I know Battlelore is fantasy and this all started talking about real world style wargames, but if it is a better system then it is the way i need to go.


BattleLore is possibly a better system out of the box, but it's a system that gets worse with the expansions, sadly: a lot of the expansions don't really give you that much (certainly compared with Memoir '44), and the game very much revolves around the Call to Arms scenario-creation system, which has its own problems.

Memoir '44 begins simpler than BattleLore, but the expansions are of excellent quality: a lot of scenarios, tiles, tokens and new rules in each one.

By the time you reach the Air Pack, Campaign Book and Breakthrough sets for Memoir '44, you've got a game that is still simple to play, but has a lot of depth and great interest in its scenarios.

Cheers,
Merric
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David Bezio
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One mans opinion...

Memoir 44 vs. Battlelore? IMHO there is really only one factor to consider…what theme and genre do you think is the most fun to play in?

I’ve owned all the C&C games (except the new Napoleonics) because I really like the game system (1 part miniature game, 1 part wargame, 1 part boardgame, shake and stir). But when I decided to trim away the fat of my game collection I decided that 9 time out of 10 I was going to want to play Battlelore, so that is the one I kept (along with Battle Cry because it is a simpler pick-up game, and I like the west). The simple reason is that I enjoy a fantasy theme over a historical one the majority of the time. BL has fantasy figures, fantasy heroes, fantasy monsters, and magic. I also have all the supplements, and think they are all worth-while additions to the game. Sure, there are a few little problems…but what game doesn’t have a few little problems? Nothing to lose sleep over.

On a forum of board game enthusiasts, people will always be able to focus on nit-picky reasons why one good game is better than another good game…but those are just that, nit-picks. Both games are very playable and a good investment IMHO. It’ll all depend on what excites you more.

If the genre isn’t a factor, I would definitely say go with Memoir 44. Not because it is a “better” game, but simply because the buy in is cheaper and Days of Wonder is a much better support company than Fantasy Flight. I also think the supplements are a bit “tighter”, and you have that awesome campaign book.

The core BL rules have been oop for some time while FF puts out random supplements and beats around the bush about the future of the game. This doesn’t make the game any less fun, and you can play the game for a Loooong time with just the core box set…but it’s a little harder to find for a good price right now (unless your local game store just happens to have a couple copies on it’s shelf…which isn’t uncommon).

So, IMHO, both are a great choice…pick the theme that you think will excite you the most. If you don’t care about theme, go with Memoir 44. If you don’t care about theme, or like the old west, and don’t plan on expanding the game in the near future, you might want to take a look at Battle Cry as well. The new version is cheap and accessible…not perfect, but still a viable option.
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Well, FFG is shipping repurposed sets of Battlelore and its expansions in April, so it's a good time to get involved in that game. I own the base set + A Call to Arms (the random scenario generator), and love it. I'm just waiting for the repurposed expansions to be released so I can add to its depth.

A big difference between it and Memoir '44 is the lore (magic) system. Depending on how you customize your war council (with a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, a commander, and a warrior), you will likely receive varying lore cards which allow you to affect the battlefield and battles (or wipe entire units out, even). It also has creatures, which I love.

If you want a fantasy themed war-game with a fairly robust magic system on the side, I'd say pick up Battlelore then get A Call to Arms (it's pretty cheap), and an expansion or two once the sets are released. Otherwise, go with Memoir '44. Those two seem far more up your alley than ToI, which is still a war-game, with the length of play to prove it. When, and if, you want to actually play a true war-game, get CC:E or P, or CoH, or even World at War for a Cold War war-game setting.
 
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Gordon Berg
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Or look into Battles of Westeros if you don't want to wait for the repurposed Battlelore. Critics of Battlelore find the magic system problematic and thefore some have turned to this game instead.

 
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David Bezio
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Deroche wrote:
Critics of Battlelore find the magic system problematic


Critics always find something problematic...odd that the fans of a game very seldom find the same things problematic.
 
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Matt Sanderson
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Deroche wrote:

Or look into Battles of Westeros if you don't want to wait for the repurposed Battlelore. Critics of Battlelore find the magic system problematic and thefore some have turned to this game instead.



I find the lore system one of Battlelore's most unique and compelling features. I think critics of the system by and large don't like it because they want more of a traditional war-game with a medieval theme, and want to exclude the fantasy elements. I would agree with you that, if you're not interested in that fantasy element, Battles of Westeros may be a good choice if you're into the books and/or want more of a straight-forward medieval tactical war-game with minis (although, ones you have to glue together yourself).
 
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Jason Weed
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Memoir 44
 
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