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Sid Meier's Civilization: The Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Assigning Scouts to Cities -- Timing rss

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Allen F
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Firstly, this is not a rules question, but an observation of something we've been playing wrong and wondering about what other players have been doing.

As a former SMAC player, I have had no trouble grokking the scout resource gathering rules as an incarnation of the venerable and useful "supply crawler," in that it convoys resources to the city of your choice. However, I have always played that you worry about this convoying during City Management, when things are getting built. Halfway through our game last night, an unrelated rules lookup caused us to notice that the rules clearly state that scouts are assigned to cities during Start of Turn.

This is a major change to how we've been playing. Having to assign at start of turn really decreases the amount of flexibility you have with your city builds, especially in four-player where running out of buildings/wonders is a major concern. Someone blitzed up the harbors, leaving your ocean city at 7 useless hammers and your desert city at 5 equally useless hazards? Tough.

So I guess I'm curious whether other people have been playing with the mistaken flexibility-plus (TM) misunderstanding? Has anyone swapped over and noted the differences? I'm inclined to think more flexibility is better, as it keeps you from having to Age of Steam your entire turn at start, reducing AP and length in an otherwise long game. Does this introduce other pitfalls in anyone else's mind?

As it turned out, last night's game was a conventional (no alternate rules) tie between an American Economic victory and a Roman tech victory - the Americans flipped their banks for the coins simultaneously with the Romans' spaceflight. Never thought I'd see the Romans in space, much less be them when it happened...

 
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Calavera Despierta
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Allen, we also have been playing this wrong apparently. I agree with you that it is far less flexible to decide during Start of Turn. Furthermore, at least at our table, there is enough going on, especially with negotiations during the trade phase, that we would likely just forget what we had assigned when it came around to City Management. I suspect we will just keep playing it the way we've been playing it.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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MScrivner wrote:
Allen, we also have been playing this wrong apparently. I agree with you that it is far less flexible to decide during Start of Turn. Furthermore, at least at our table, there is enough going on, especially with negotiations during the trade phase, that we would likely just forget what we had assigned when it came around to City Management. I suspect we will just keep playing it the way we've been playing it.



How does it affect the game whether you assign the SCOUT in the beginning of the turn or in CITY MANAGEMENT???

No movement/combat/whatever has occurred prior to the assigning resources.

Most players know you need to assign at the beginning of the turn, but it just slows things down a bit if you have to wait for your AP players to decide where to ship the goods to.

I haven't seen the necessity of assigning the SPACE resources early in the Game Turn. If something could happen that eliminates a unit....so be it.

There is a Culture card that makes you move units 2 spaces...But you could just do this in the CM phase so why bother?

Can anyone find a reason to ONLY have the SCOUT assignment at the beginning of the turn making a Game impact?
 
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Snappy Dan
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ASLChampion wrote:
Can anyone find a reason to ONLY have the SCOUT assignment at the beginning of the turn making a Game impact?

Assembler alluded to this in his post. You're Player 4 in the turn order and you assign a Scout to a city during the Start of Turn phase hoping to construct a building on the Market Board of which only one is left, or a particular wonder. Players 1-3 snag that last building or particular wonder during their City Management phases before your CM phase.

Or maybe you were wanting to collect that last Wheat from the market on the Scout's tile, but someone claims the last Wheat before you.
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Calavera Despierta
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ASLChampion wrote:
MScrivner wrote:
Allen, we also have been playing this wrong apparently. I agree with you that it is far less flexible to decide during Start of Turn. Furthermore, at least at our table, there is enough going on, especially with negotiations during the trade phase, that we would likely just forget what we had assigned when it came around to City Management. I suspect we will just keep playing it the way we've been playing it.



How does it affect the game whether you assign the SCOUT in the beginning of the turn or in CITY MANAGEMENT???


Rather easily. There are both culture cards, and technology card abilities (that require the spending of a resource) that trigger during City Management. Due to turn order, all sorts of things might have changed between when I assigned the scout and the actual moment I get to use a city to take an action. Also, I might want to change how I use my city actions depending on what was built by my opponents during their City Management phase. It might be more effective, for example for me to build a figure in City A to respond to the build of a figure by my opponent in his neighboring city, rather than using City A, as I had planned, to harvest silk. But I still want silk, and my City B has not used its action yet, and it may be better to harvest silk instead of devoting to culture with City B as I had planned, etc, etc.
 
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Ægir Æxx
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I think this just to have an idiot-proof way of not letting you use a scout that was just built to serve a city on the same turn.

We play that you decide what city a scout is going to serve during city management by tilting it on it's side and not using the scouts on the same turn they were built.
 
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Ian Kelly
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ChillusMaximus wrote:
I think this just to have an idiot-proof way of not letting you use a scout that was just built to serve a city on the same turn.


There is already a rule that expressly forbids that, so the Start of Turn rule doesn't matter in that regard.
 
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Ian Kelly
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Actually, I suspect that the reason scouts are assigned in Start of Turn is to circumvent timing issues with collecting trade in the Trade step. If scouts were assigned in City Management, then by a literal reading of the rules, they would not be able to gather trade, since they would not yet have been assigned for the turn.
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Allen F
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That literal reading of the rules for collecting Trade might be the trick, though conceptually it shouldn't matter. Since you're going to be assigning the scout to ONE of your cities, and trade is communal across cities it doesn't matter which city you're attached to in Trade, just that you're attached to A city.

It seems from most of the responses here that the received wisdom (and the way most have been playing) has been in addressing the scout assignment at City Management. Personally, I'm inclined to think that's a better rule than RAW for reasons stated above. Have people played strictly by the RAW and had it make a significant impact? It seems more fiddly than it would be worth.
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William Towns
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both times I've played there has been no need to announce scout assignments, so I've never seen it as an issue. That said, it is better to know the rule so when a conflict comes up it can be resolved right then and there. I will also say I may be too trusting of my opponents to build properly...ninja
 
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ro$lina -X-
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ASLChampion wrote:
[q="MScrivner"]
How does it affect the game whether you assign the SCOUT in the beginning of the turn or in CITY MANAGEMENT???


first of all as someone said before there's the planning ahead aspect - it's a lot harder to effectively use your scouts this way and you kind of give away your plans.

but imagine a situation: your opponent has 2 scouts, both sitting on forests with 2 hammers and a city that lacks 2 hammers to build, let's say one of the wonders. wouldn't you wanna know which scout will support that city (assuming he won't assign them both there just to be sure) when you have ways to stop one of them from harvesting those 2 hammers, but stopping both would be harder/impossible?

off the top of my head, between start of turn and that players CM phase you could:

turn the forest underneath that scout to a desert or grass (culture cards, start of turn)

move that scout 2/3/4 spaces (culture cards, CM)

start a battle and destroy that scout if it (and acompanying armies) stand on the outskirts of one of your cities (CM phase)


and it works both ways - when you know which city is going to be fed by scouts you can throw your cards/abbilities right at it, possibly blocking outskirts, enforcing anarchy (if it's the capital), destroying buldings or the city itself;]
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Ricardo Donoso
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Let´s get an example:

Player B have 2 cities with production 5 and one with 3, in start of turn he decides to purchase 3 blue units (that he will upgrade on reasearch), his cost is 5 each (lvl I).

So, he sends his scouts (that are in a forest) so he can have production 5/5/7. All the cities can produce a blue unit.

Right before his turn, the first player builds 3 red lvl2 units, units that trample his blue lvl1, and now he can be attacked before he upgrades his units.

So now he want to build 2 green units instead, since they are lvl2, cost 7. IF he could change the scouts designation, he could build 2 green, but with the current setup of scouts he can only afford one.
 
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Ricardo Donoso
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Or, as soon as your enemy declares his 2 scouts will send to his capital in the turn after he researched monarchy, just by coincidence when the castle samrai became available...

You culture-send him to anarchy!

No samurai castle for you dude!!!!
 
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Ricardo Donoso
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You just realized that your friend using that coin his scout is ontop is at 16 coins.

What you gonna do?

Nuke that city his scout is sending to, this way he loses his bank and the coin from the scout.

You just gave yourself another turn.
 
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Ian Kelly
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rdonoso wrote:
You just realized that your friend using that coin his scout is ontop is at 16 coins.

What you gonna do?

Nuke that city his scout is sending to, this way he loses his bank and the coin from the scout.

You just gave yourself another turn.


If he is at 16 coins then he has already either ended the game (if using the standard rules) or triggered the end of the game this turn (if using the alternate tie-breaker). Either way you don't gain another turn by doing this.
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Ricardo Donoso
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Peristarkawan wrote:
rdonoso wrote:
You just realized that your friend using that coin his scout is ontop is at 16 coins.

What you gonna do?

Nuke that city his scout is sending to, this way he loses his bank and the coin from the scout.

You just gave yourself another turn.


If he is at 16 coins then he has already either ended the game (if using the standard rules) or triggered the end of the game this turn (if using the alternate tie-breaker). Either way you don't gain another turn by doing this.

No, he JUST got 2+ coin this turn, he will win in the end of the turn. Since he is at 16 you need to get rid of 2, each of his citys has a bank, so, by destroying his city you will bring he back to 14.

 
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Ian Kelly
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rdonoso wrote:
Peristarkawan wrote:
If he is at 16 coins then he has already either ended the game (if using the standard rules) or triggered the end of the game this turn (if using the alternate tie-breaker). Either way you don't gain another turn by doing this.

No, he JUST got 2+ coin this turn, he will win in the end of the turn. Since he is at 16 you need to get rid of 2, each of his citys has a bank, so, by destroying his city you will bring he back to 14.


To qualify for the alternate tie-breaker, all you need to do is "complete" an economic victory by having 15+ coins at some point. It doesn't matter if you subsequently drop below 15. It still triggers the game to end, and it still qualifies you for the tie-breaker.

Official FAQ wrote:
If a player completes a culture, economic, or technology victory, the rest of the turn is played out. After the end of the turn, every player who has completed a non-military victory (remembering that military victories instantly win the game) calculates their victory score, as follows:
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