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Subject: New view of 9/11 attacks rss

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Rich S
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I hope this doesn't get political and moved into RSP but a new video from an NYPD helicopter has surfaced of the aftermath of the attacks on the towers. Dramatic long range images. That horror still breaks my heart.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110307/us_yblog_t...
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Stephen Dunne
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Maybe not Chit Chat material?
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Matthew M
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Moved to RSP - more due to the comments attached to the video. The internet realllly sucks sometimes.
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Rob
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Well, *that* was fast.

To comment on the story. If the video had to be leaked anonymously, then it's likely that leaking was illegal. Probably no-one outside of the requesting group was supposed to have seen it.
 
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andrew
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one day it will be good to know the whole story behind all this. It pissed me off in so many conflicting ways when it happened.

it still makes me angry to watch videos of people dying in burning buildings (though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target). though that does not make it right in my head. even so i think discussion about cause, effect and fact should continue.
 
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Jonny Lawless
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antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


That does really lessen the blow doesn't it? Phew!
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Ben Foy
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antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


What?

Are you talking about the 343 Firefighters who died?
The 60 Police Officers?
The 15 EMTs?

Maybe the 11 Australians who died were corrupt or the 8 kids?

Maybe the 216 passengers on the planes were corrupt or the 33 crew members?

Or maybe Cantor Fitzgerald, the employer which lost 658 employees is considered corrupt by you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor_Fitzgerald_L.P.

Quote:
On September 19, Cantor Fitzgerald made a pledge to distribute 25 percent of the firm's profits for the next five years, and committed to paying for ten years of health care, for the benefit of the families of its 658 former Cantor Fitzgerald, eSpeed, and TradeSpark employees (profits which would otherwise have been distributed to the Cantor Fitzgerald partners). In 2006 the company completed its promise, having paid a total of $180 million (and an additional $17 million from a relief fund run by Lutnick's sister, Edie).


Yes, that sounds like a corrupt company. shake
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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antiussentiment wrote:
(though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target).


Yeah, try flying that flag here in OKC and see how fast you get escorted to the state line.
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lotus dweller
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Whats the word "some" mean in the USA?
Over here its very different in meaning to "all". And less than "most" and even less than "many". More than "a few" though.

I'll attack Andrew's post on the basis that the knowledge of "some" in no way excuses the killings of innocent people or diminishes the failure to separate right from wrong by those responsible. The killers are an embarrasment to Islam, their families and to humanity.
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andrew
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BFoy wrote:
antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


What?

Are you talking about the 343 Firefighters who died?
The 60 Police Officers?
The 15 EMTs?

blah blah ...


No.. they are probably not part of the "some". though if you worked in or around the building you knew you were close to a target (or you were kidding your self).. the WTO is a pretty shitty organisation and has been attacked before.

and putting words in someone's mouth does not a point make.
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andrew
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jonnylawless wrote:
antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


That does really lessen the blow doesn't it? Phew!


true, not in any sense. i'm still very angry and horrified by the whole thing and it's fallout. no one wants to see shit like that.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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antiussentiment wrote:
the WTO is a pretty shitty organisation and has been attacked before.

Uhh... what? If you meant "WTC," I don't understand that first part.
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Leo Zappa
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antiussentiment wrote:
BFoy wrote:
antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


What?

Are you talking about the 343 Firefighters who died?
The 60 Police Officers?
The 15 EMTs?

blah blah ...


No.. they are probably not part of the "some". though if you worked in or around the building you knew you were close to a target (or you were kidding your self).. the WTO is a pretty shitty organisation and has been attacked before.

and putting words in someone's mouth does not a point make.


I could be wrong, but I don't think that Bin Laden and those 19 assholes targeted the Twin Towers specifically because they housed the World Trade Center as a particularly "evil" (to them) organization.

Rather, I think they targeted the two most famous American buildings in the most famous American city because they wanted maximum publicity for their attack against America as a whole. I don't think the particulars of who worked in the building really factored into their decision. At most, the perception that the Twin Towers represented the "corporate face" of America might have made it a symbolic target, just as the Pentagon was the symbolic military face of America, and the Capitol Building (target of Flight 93) the civilian government face of America.

I'll buy that Bin Laden was targeting symbols of American power, but I won't accept the notion that the people working in those buildings were working for intrinsically "evil" organizations, as you put it. Evil to Bin Laden's worldview, perhaps, but evil in an absolute, universally accepted sense, no.
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Ben Foy
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Pinook wrote:
Whats the word "some" mean in the USA?


I can't find any corrupt organizations.

None doesn't equal some.

I went through over a thousand individuals and nothing.

Maybe the idea of individuals working for corrupt organization is just an Al Queda lie. A lame excuse to justify their crimes.

Tell me, where are those corrupt organizations?
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Ben Foy
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antiussentiment wrote:
BFoy wrote:
antiussentiment wrote:
though i guess some knew they were working for a corrupt organisation that was a pretty obvious target


What?

Are you talking about the 343 Firefighters who died?
The 60 Police Officers?
The 15 EMTs?

blah blah ...


No.. they are probably not part of the "some". though if you worked in or around the building you knew you were close to a target (or you were kidding your self).. the WTO is a pretty shitty organisation and has been attacked before.

and putting words in someone's mouth does not a point make.


The point is clear and obvious to most people. I went through over 1000 of the inviduals who died and none of them worked for any corrupt organizations (except maybe those 11 Australians ).

Where are those corrupt organizations? Surely you can name them! Lets hear all about them! Show me the bacon!!!

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andrew
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@leo why did they not bomb the super bowl (or some other crowd of US folk doing something typically American). a much better symbol of the USA.

@ben you don't think what the WTC represents is corrupt in it's workings? did US big business (WTC was a good symbol of that) not just give the whole earth a fiscal hernia? well lets just say your entitled to your opinion. I'll always argue for your right to have it.

@rusty yep. shit at acronyms
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Ben Foy
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antiussentiment wrote:
@ben you don't think what the WTC represents is corrupt in it's workings?


To me the WTC were just a bunch of big buildings. It didn't represent anything other than the economics of Manhattan.

Are there corrupt Big Businesses? Yes!

But I've seen no evidence that the people who died worked for them.

antiussentiment wrote:
well lets just say your entitled to your opinion. I'll always argue for your right to have it.


And you have the right to your opinion. Even if that opinion isn't based on reality.
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Leo Zappa
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antiussentiment wrote:
@leo why did they not bomb the super bowl (or some other crowd of US folk doing something typically American). a much better symbol of the USA.

@ben you don't think what the WTC represents is corrupt in it's workings? did US big business (WTC was a good symbol of that) not just give the whole earth a fiscal hernia? well lets just say your entitled to your opinion. I'll always argue for your right to have it.

@rusty yep. shit at acronyms


Andy,

Who's to say that Al Qaeda hasn't plotted to hit a major sporting event, such as the Superbowl? I would say it would be a great terror target - hell, there was a cheesy movie made back in the 1970's on just such an attack, and to be made by a Middle Eastern terror group, no less! Name of the movie was "Black Sunday"...



I think Al Qaeda picks targets that maximize their media coverage while serving as symbols of the "enemy". It's all about propaganda value for Bin Laden, more so than actually hitting specific "corrupt enemy personnel". He considers all Americans his enemy, so I don't think he's too picky about which ones he kills. Just that there are mass quantities of them in one place and that they happen to be sitting in or around iconic American pieces of property seems to be enough for him.
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andrew
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yeah i remember that movie.

but any way, i think US folk did not understand what the WTC stood for outside the US. like the Iranians i met when i was there, i think binlarden is more fussed about US policy makers than US citizens. assuming you don't swallow all the spin the politicians spruke (on both sides). it's about pay back as far as i can see. no killing masses of people. or he/they would have picked a different target and been totally indiscriminate.
 
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Leo Zappa
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Well, Andy, you do have a point about how people outside of the US view certain US "symbols" or "institutions". I could see that perhaps a bin Laden-type might attach a great deal of importance to a particular target based on his perception of that target, even to the point of "over-valuing" that target compared to what American's themselves think of it. Take the Twin Towers - these buildings, while known to most Americans prior to 9/11, were certainly not foremost in the minds of most Americans before that day. Bin Laden may have been fixated on them, most Americans definitely were not. So, as you say, perhaps it's difficult for an American to appreciate how foreigners view the USA, to include what they like and dislike most about it, and what is and is not important to most Americans.
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andrew
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actually i've often wondered if the bombing was done for the rest of the world to see? and that what US folk thought about it was secondary to who ever did it?

the buildings were iconic and beautiful. sadly gone.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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When you do look at the lists of tenants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tenants_in_One_World_Tr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tenants_in_Two_World_Tr...

You see many Banks and Investment firms. To the people who think Globalization is enslaving and corrupting their people, these are considered corrupt and evil. Add in the World Trade symbolism fact, and this is exactly what a terrorist would target so as to send the correct message. Killing thousands of people at the SuperBowl might create more terror and outrage, but the NFL isn't high on the list (but I don't think that it actually is NOT on the list) of corruption for the people who feel oppressed by international corporations. It's not like this was called the Anti-Muslim Center, yet it was filled with Orphanages, Clinics and Soup Kitchens. It was called the World Trade center and included many agencies that encouraged, supported and profited from world trade. The truth is, many conservative religious types overseas see "world trade" as an attack on their traditional way of life and a temptation to corruption for the people of their homelands.

I think there is a middle ground here. There were people in the towers who were aware that they had international criticism directed at their individual companies for policies they supported internationally. In no way did that make them worthy of execution. There is no excuse for the actions of the terrorists. In the eyes of the terrorists though, this was a message to the people who do run and work for those companies. It also was a symbolic gesture to criticize U.S. policy in general. It was barbaric and wrong and a totally unreasonable reaction to those policies. BUT, to claim that some of the people in the towers did not know that they had violent enemies out to get the companies (and in some cases themselves) is a bit simplistic. The WTC had been attacked before. everyone who worked there knew it. If you think you are doing the right thing and continue to work there in spite of those threats, then that is a respectable decision. Some of the people had to know that there were people in the world who lived with the consequences of that decision and didn't see it as the right thing and were very capable of using violence to address their perceived slights.
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Daniel Eig
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antiussentiment wrote:

the buildings were iconic and beautiful. sadly gone.


Yes the buildings are gone. Tragic. No wait... actually its not.

3000+ people are sadly gone - for no good reason. THAT is tragic

The buildings were replaceable steel and glass.
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Stew
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And there I was thinking the WTC was targeted because it was the easiest to fly an aeroplane into, being tall and all.

My mind has been blown.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Hoonuff wrote:
And there I was thinking the WTC was targeted because it was the easiest to fly an aeroplane into, being tall and all.

My mind has been blown.


If that were the criteria, the Pentagon wouldn't have been chosen as a target.
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