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Mansions of Madness» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ladders work in pairs? - Minimal Spolier rss

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colin darra
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I have looked for the answer to my question here on BGG, and have not found one.

I was under the impression that ladders work in pairs, but...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
in the setup diagrams for stories 2 and 3 there is only a single ladder shown. So, where should the other end of the ladder appear in each story?

Story 4 correctly shows two ends of the ladder


or, have I missed something entirely?

ColD
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Leigh Caple
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I think the second part of the ladder gets revealed via one of the exploration cards. It certainly did in the Scenario we played.
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colin darra
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ah, so I did miss something entirely. Thanks for the answer Leigh.
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B C Z
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If there is only one ladder token on the board, then:
1) You cannot go to the other side (not yet revealed)
2) The Keeper may have cards triggered by being on a ladder space.

Note it. Remember it. Keep exploring. Don't go crazy.
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Mike Charbonneau
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On scenario Blood Ties only one ladder show on map.

This is because: Spoiler bellow:

















Theres a card manhole somewhere, and when you find the crowbar you can actually open the manhole and then get to the ladder (it's all in the cards)
 
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Evan Stegman
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byronczimmer wrote:
If there is only one ladder token on the board, then:
1) You cannot go to the other side (not yet revealed)
2) The Keeper may have cards triggered by being on a ladder space.

Note it. Remember it. Keep exploring. Don't go crazy.


I consider this so lame I am not putting the ladder on the board until the other half is found.

It makes no sense thematically. What are you supposed to say to the player?

Player: I go down the ladder.
Keeper: You can't.
Player: Why not?
Keeper: Because you don't know where the bottom half of the ladder is.
Player: When I get past the top half, I'll know.
Keeper: Nope. You can't use a ladder if you don't know what room the bottom half is in.
Player: Stop joking and let me go down the ladder.
Keeper: Sorry, you have to pretend it doesn't exist.

Lame, lame, lame.

I am just not putting the top half of the ladder on the board because I am embarrassed to have to try to explain something that make no sense whatsoever.
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Mariano Rico
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I am not very happy either with the solution the FAQ gives for this question either.

Being a role player myself (and this game is pretty close to a RPG), I know how frustrating for players might be to try to do something logical (climb down some stairs) and be given an illogical answer (sorry, those dont lead anywhere...).

Wouldn´t it be much easier just to say the steps are covered by some manhole/magic symbol and you still cannot open it until proper clues are found? That would increase the interest of players instead of discouraging them.

The solution of placing them both at the same time might also work, but having not played the Scenario myslef yet not sure if gameplay mechanics wise is doable.
 
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Dominik Dollinger
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Thematically you could say that the ladder is some kind of trapdoor/secret passage which is locked. When the second half gets placed it gets unlocked by some mechanical contrivance/magic/whatever. It's not that hard if you are a bit creative.
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Evan Stegman
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el Igore wrote:
Thematically you could say that the ladder is some kind of trapdoor/secret passage which is locked. When the second half gets placed it gets unlocked by some mechanical contrivance/magic/whatever. It's not that hard if you are a bit creative.


Except that's not what the scenario says. It just says there is a ladder that goes nowhere. If it is supposed to be a trapdoor and not a ladder whose second half doesn't actually exist, that's what the scenario should say.

Playing with neither half of the ladder on the board worked just fine and saved from coming up with some convoluted rationalization that is not supported by the documentation.
 
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Dominik Dollinger
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EvanMinn wrote:
Except that's not what the scenario says. It just says there is a ladder that goes nowhere. If it is supposed to be a trapdoor and not a ladder whose second half doesn't actually exist, that's what the scenario should say.

Playing with neither half of the ladder on the board worked just fine and saved from coming up with some convoluted rationalization that is not supported by the documentation.

Whatever works for you.
But aren't there some mythos cards that require rooms with ladders?
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Cameron Chien
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This IS H. P. Lovecraft. Who's not to say that the ladder just leads to nowhere?

Cameron
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Daniel Davis
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For my games 1 part of the ladder is not placed on the board until both parts are. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

"Can I go down that ladder?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."
"Can I go down to see where it goes?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."

That's not how ladders work.

Once the destination is revealed, I will reveal that a trap door has opened or something.
 
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Matt Ramsey
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Why not say that a ladder piece marks where there is a hole or trapdoor or something but there is presently no ladder there. Or that maybe they can see the other end of the ladder but it needs to be extended which can only be done from the other side? Would either of these work for the stories?
 
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Mariano Rico
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D_Davis wrote:
For my games 1 part of the ladder is not placed on the board until both parts are. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

"Can I go down that ladder?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."
"Can I go down to see where it goes?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."

That's not how ladders work.

Once the destination is revealed, I will reveal that a trap door has opened or something.


There is at least one effect you are preventing by doing this : Keeper play of Mythos cards that require stairs to be present.
 
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Gary Duke
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In scenario 3, at least:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The investigators can't get to the room/space where the ladder is until after they've found the other end by locating the appropriate Clue. So only the Keeper might be annoyed by not being able to use the ladder (he can get humanoid monsters to that room). In that case, it's still thematic because the monster would be climbing up into a manhole cover - which the investigators have to open from above with the crowbar.
 
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Evan Stegman
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D_Davis wrote:
For my games 1 part of the ladder is not placed on the board until both parts are. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

"Can I go down that ladder?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."
"Can I go down to see where it goes?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you don't know where it goes."

That's not how ladders work.

Once the destination is revealed, I will reveal that a trap door has opened or something.


That's exactly my point:

It makes no sense to mark that kind of thing with a token that has a picture of a a ladder going into an open hole.

There should be a picture of a token with a trapdoor or a hole with no ladder.

Part of the appeal a story game like this is immersion. Having a picture that doesn't match the situation takes one out of the game and wasting time explaining the sloppiness of the thought behind it.

I will probably just scan in the token and photoshop out the ladder and make my own hole token. My complaint is that they didn't include one not that I can't use some mental gymnastics to kinda, sorta explain it. I shouldn't have to.
 
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David Jose
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One of the things I like so much about the design of this game is that they've managed to make so many bits and pieces do double, and triple duty.

I would really rather have one single piece, that can be used 100% of the time, over 10 different fiddly pieces that each only have 10% play time.

I really don't see the mental gymnastics needed to deal with this, and would hardly consider it a problem.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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Well in scenario 3 anyway, they can't even *get* to the "bottom" half of the ladder except by finding the top half, and if you read the clue cards, it's pretty clear that if someone did somehow try to go up the ladder from the bottom, you could just say "it ends in an immovable manhole cover".
 
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Allan Clements
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There is a whole in the floor with a ladder. You climb down and just about make out in the darkness than there is no passage, just rock all around.

When the the other end appears, the earth has been cleared and there is now a passage available.

Is it so hard to imagine that??
 
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Tom Boaz
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Mountain, meet molehill. Seriously, guys, this is not difficult to explain in narrative terms. Just leave the ladder token on the board; it'll stir the investigators' interest and give the Keeper access to the appropriate mythos cards.
 
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Evan Stegman
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HotSake wrote:
Mountain, meet molehill. Seriously, guys, this is not difficult to explain in narrative terms. Just leave the ladder token on the board; it'll stir the investigators' interest and give the Keeper access to the appropriate mythos cards.


If by "interest" you mean 'interested in how a game can be so lame to have a tile whose illustration doesn't match the situation' then, yeah.

I came up with a better way that using the embarrassingly dumb 'ladder that's not really a ladder' token:



Since Vertigo only can be used when they are actually climbing a ladder so doesn't matter, there is only one card that it affects: Darkness Below (allows spread of darkness from ladder space). Since I will be keeper when the homemade tile is used, if I decide I want to use that mythos card, I'll explain the situation. That's a lot easier to explain that a tile with a ladder on in that is not really a ladder. Given the amount of errata already in the game, no one is going to question it like they would a picture that is a lie.

If I need another one for a non-wood surface (or a manhole cover), I'll make one for that too. An immersive game like this suffers when the picture is wrong so I'd rather spend the fifteen minutes it takes to fix the picture.
 
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Tom Boaz
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The picture isn't wrong - there is a ladder there. There are perfectly fine suggestions in this very thread for explaining why the end of a ladder poking out of a hole does not mean you can climb down it and into another room right this moment. The tile's illustration perfectly matches the situation: ladder leading into a dark hole. Where you go from there is up to you, but it sure sounds like a failure of imagination if you can't picture a ladder whose other end is temporarily inaccessible.
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