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Subject: QPnP - WIP - Cleveland - A City Building Game rss

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Jack Neal
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All,

Here is my second entry into a contest I've been running on BGG.

Rules and materials are below:

http://www.jkntech.com/cleveland/cleveland-board-lowink.pdf
http://www.jkntech.com/cleveland/cleveland-rules.pdf

I'm looking for playtesters and general feedback, seeing as there's 48 hours before the deadline, gamekillers would be great to catch. :-)


Thanks much,

Jack
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David Etherton
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Having one document that you print overlapping subsets of pages to get either small tiles or large tiles is pretty cool! I think I'll do the small tiles but mount them on chipboard.

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Are there four zones per tile or just one? Does placement of a city matter on a tile? It doesn't look like you can fit more than one city on one of the 1" tiles, even though some tiles have multiple building sites? EDIT - looks like you place a generic marker down and keep the building tile separate.

Is the lower-right example tile on the first page an example of a demand tile for commercial? EDIT - No, it's an example of a tile with a commercial building site. If it was drawn when determining the current (or new) demand tile, THEN it would be a demand tile.
 
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David Etherton
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During setup, it mentions city tiles with an i on them. Which ones are these exactly?
 
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todd sanders
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will print this up in the morning
 
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David Etherton
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I assume you can win a building tile but not be able to satisfy its immediate VP requirements (and therefore cannot place a city marker or ever claim those victory points) BUT that building tile can still net you points at the end of the game if you have the right commissioner card?

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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What happens if a R/C city tile is turned over as the demand tile? Does that mean only other R/C tiles match that demand, or do Residential and Commercial tiles also match the demand?

Similarly, if the current demand tile is either R or C, and I play an R/C tile, do I still get the 1VP bonus?

If R/C is intended to be a fifth, unique zone, I'd probably rename it to "Special" or somesuch for clarity.

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Sorry for the zillion individual posts, but I find it's easier to reply to individual questions than quote five different things at once.

Anyway, yet another clarification -- There are six buildings (out of a possible eight) up for voting in each hand of the game. Is it true that only the first three can trigger special elections? The rules mention that once everybody is out of tiles, "the three most recently available tiles" are rolled for (except that tiles with no votes are discarded).

"Unlike the regular elections, if no vote cards are placed for a building, it is discarded." -- Did you mean special elections here? And if so, it seems like an unnecessary clarification, because special elections don't happen until there are three vote tiles next to a building anyway.

What happens if there are three special elections in a round already? Can there be a fourth? (Granted, this seems unlikely since there are never more than 20 tiles in a hand).

Also, while keeping vote tiles straight in a 2p game seems pretty easy, it seems like it would get tricky in a 3p or 4p game.

-Dave
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
Having one document that you print overlapping subsets of pages to get either small tiles or large tiles is pretty cool! I think I'll do the small tiles but mount them on chipboard.

-Dave


I did the buildings on chipboard. An earlier version had the buildings as 0.75" inch squares on 2" tiles. It worked out well - but then I couldn't do the generic buildings and I lost a tiebreaker in the process.

I did the 1" tiles so I could use some 1" educational plastic tiles from EAI that I've had laying around my closet for years.
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
I assume you can win a building tile but not be able to satisfy its immediate VP requirements (and therefore cannot place a city marker or ever claim those victory points) BUT that building tile can still net you points at the end of the game if you have the right commissioner card?

-Dave


Discarded buildings don't count for VP at the end of the game. If it isn't placed in the city at the time the election/auction takes place, it is gone forever.

If you suspect your opponent is going for victory down a path, you can kill that card. Usually though, the immediate VP reward is higher than what they get through the commissionership. I wanted to leave the option open though.
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
During setup, it mentions city tiles with an i on them. Which ones are these exactly?


This is a carryover from the original tiles where I had i, ii, and iii printed on them for the stages. I switched to colors.

Simply place the white ones first.
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
Are there four zones per tile or just one? Does placement of a city matter on a tile? It doesn't look like you can fit more than one city on one of the 1" tiles, even though some tiles have multiple building sites? EDIT - looks like you place a generic marker down and keep the building tile separate.


Yes - generic marker for the building. There is one zone for building. Multiple buildings can be placed on multiple sites on some of the tiles. The zones have to match the building or no dice.

Quote:
Is the lower-right example tile on the first page an example of a demand tile for commercial? EDIT - No, it's an example of a tile with a commercial building site. If it was drawn when determining the current (or new) demand tile, THEN it would be a demand tile.


Demand tiles are the same as city tiles - they are just used in a different way. Whatever zone is printed on them counts as demand. The R/C tiles allow R AND C to be in demand.

 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
What happens if a R/C city tile is turned over as the demand tile? Does that mean only other R/C tiles match that demand, or do Residential and Commercial tiles also match the demand?


Yep!

Quote:
Similarly, if the current demand tile is either R or C, and I play an R/C tile, do I still get the 1VP bonus?


Yep.

Quote:
If R/C is intended to be a fifth, unique zone, I'd probably rename it to "Special" or somesuch for clarity.


Or get rid of it altogether. I kinda like it though.
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
Sorry for the zillion individual posts, but I find it's easier to reply to individual questions than quote five different things at once.


It works well. Keep doing it. :-)

Quote:
Anyway, yet another clarification -- There are six buildings (out of a possible eight) up for voting in each hand of the game. Is it true that only the first three can trigger special elections? The rules mention that once everybody is out of tiles, "the three most recently available tiles" are rolled for (except that tiles with no votes are discarded).


There are a variable amount. As few as 3 if no one performs votes and NONE of them would be rolled out into the city. In a two player game, realistically, 9 of them could come out in the first round if multiple cards are played on some buildings instead of the city at large. Regardless of what comes out in play, three buildings are always processed at the end of the hand. This forces the game to go at least into the middle building tiles, usually.

Quote:
"Unlike the regular elections, if no vote cards are placed for a building, it is discarded." -- Did you mean special elections here? And if so, it seems like an unnecessary clarification, because special elections don't happen until there are three vote tiles next to a building anyway.


I should clarify and say "end of hand" or "end of term" or "end of year" elections.

Quote:
What happens if there are three special elections in a round already? Can there be a fourth? (Granted, this seems unlikely since there are never more than 20 tiles in a hand).


Yes.

Quote:
Also, while keeping vote tiles straight in a 2p game seems pretty easy, it seems like it would get tricky in a 3p or 4p game.


Agreed. That's one reason I kept it as a three player game max. Putting enough space between the buildings and mimicking the player seating at the table should be enough since the number (and size) of tiles is relatively small.

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Raiderjakk wrote:
I did the buildings on chipboard. An earlier version had the buildings as 0.75" inch squares on 2" tiles. It worked out well - but then I couldn't do the generic buildings and I lost a tiebreaker in the process.


Huh? What do you mean "couldn't do the generic buildings"? I was thinking it would make a lot more sense to put the building tiles directly on the city tiles if you built the bigger city tiles, then you wouldn't need the 27 separate markers at all.

The commisioner cards seem to only award points based on whether a building exists in the city or not, regardless of who actually built it, so it seems like ownership isn't important as long as you remember to score the points at the time you place it.

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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The four Whatever Development commissioner cards don't make sense to me. Should they read "1VP per tile in the largest continuous zone of that type"?

Pretty much all the other commissioner cards scale based on money or per particular types of buildings.

As it stands, they award 1VP for the largest zone of that kind -- but isn't that always going to be 1VP, period? It's not like one player owns a zone either.

-Dave
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
Raiderjakk wrote:
I did the buildings on chipboard. An earlier version had the buildings as 0.75" inch squares on 2" tiles. It worked out well - but then I couldn't do the generic buildings and I lost a tiebreaker in the process.


Huh? What do you mean "couldn't do the generic buildings"? I was thinking it would make a lot more sense to put the building tiles directly on the city tiles if you built the bigger city tiles, then you wouldn't need the 27 separate markers at all.

The commisioner cards seem to only award points based on whether a building exists in the city or not, regardless of who actually built it, so it seems like ownership isn't important as long as you remember to score the points at the time you place it.

-Dave


True, and that's how it worked for the first month I was kicking the design around. However, I couldn't use the buildings on the smaller tiles because the font gets so really tiny and I really wanted to use the other tiles. Also, if there is a tie, there wasn't really a good way to really figure out who had what buildings and I really wanted to push that as a tie break. I could still use generic markers as a building count in front of the players, but, I couldn't use the 1" tiles with 1" or 3/4" buildings.

So, I'm at the current design. I see your point though and I wrestled with it. I've trended this way although if I kill the tiebreaker and the generic markers and the smaller tiles, then I end up with the game the other way and it is just as playable that way.

The commissioner cards tend to encourage different types of cities to be built and were meant to be generic, so that works for now.
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
The four Whatever Development commissioner cards don't make sense to me. Should they read "1VP per zone in the largest zone of that type"?

As it stands, they award 1VP for the largest zone of that kind -- but isn't that always going to be 1VP, period? It's not like one player owns a zone either.

-Dave


I will rephrase. Each tile is worth 1 VP per tile in the largest zone... so 8 continuous industrial tiles would be worth 8 VP.
 
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David Etherton
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Raiderjakk wrote:

True, and that's how it worked for the first month I was kicking the design around. However, I couldn't use the buildings on the smaller tiles because the font gets so really tiny and I really wanted to use the other tiles. Also, if there is a tie, there wasn't really a good way to really figure out who had what buildings and I really wanted to push that as a tie break. I could still use generic markers as a building count in front of the players, but, I couldn't use the 1" tiles with 1" or 3/4" buildings.

So, I'm at the current design. I see your point though and I wrestled with it. I've trended this way although if I kill the tiebreaker and the generic markers and the smaller tiles, then I end up with the game the other way and it is just as playable that way.

The commissioner cards tend to encourage different types of cities to be built and were meant to be generic, so that works for now.


Just to clarify where I'm coming from, this is also why I asked whether you could keep a building in front of you even if you couldn't place it. Of course on further reading, you should only get points for a building from a commissioner card if that building was built in the city.

In a 2p game you could always use the facing of the building to determine who built it. (Having separate markers for buildings isn't really a big deal, and would let me get away with building the smaller tiles -- I just like to minimize the number of components necessary in any design for manufacturing optimization)

-Dave
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
In a 2p game you could always use the facing of the building to determine who built it. (Having separate markers for buildings isn't really a big deal, and would let me get away with building the smaller tiles -- I just like to minimize the number of components necessary in any design for manufacturing optimization)

-Dave


I hadn't thought of doing that. That's a good idea.
 
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Jack Neal
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So, Dave, I have to ask. Does the game still sound like its worth printing and playing?
 
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David Etherton
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Have you thought about either doubling the number of stars or dividing the die roll by two (rounding up) to minimize the randomness of the elections?

If I had put three votes on one side (maybe not all two stars) and then lost because I rolled a 1 and my opponent (who had invested nothing) rolled a 6, I'd be pretty cheesed.

I actually missed the fact that there was a die roll at all in my first reading and would have been quite happy without it. I guess the intent is that you would burn tiles that would help your opponent more than you by using them for votes?

(Also, since people spend money to win elections, it would make a certain amount of thematic sense to drop the stars entirely and just use the printed dollar amount to bolster a vote, with or without the final die roll -- but of course that makes the $0 tiles worthless for voting)

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Raiderjakk wrote:
So, Dave, I have to ask. Does the game still sound like its worth printing and playing?


As it stands right now, it's a game I wish I had designed, so yes it does. I just want to make sure I only have to print it out once!

-Dave
 
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David Etherton
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Okay -- about the buildings again, I'm not going to requote the entire post but see if I understand it:

1. You put 18 buildings out at the start of the game. It's not six buildings per hand, but rather, 18 all at once.

2. At the end of each hand, you look at the 3 first buildings in line, and either roll for them (if they had any votes) or simply discard them.

3. This means that if, for example, nobody ever votes on any buildings, half of the buildings would be discarded by the end of the game.

Now I'm not clear on which buildings you can vote on -- can you vote on ANY of the 18 buildings at any time? Granted, voting on an expensive building when the city is small is probably a waste.

If the first three buildings in line have no votes and there is one vote on the fourth building at the end of the first hand, do we just discard those three buildings and move on, and the fourth building with a vote on it isn't rolled for until either two more votes are placed, or after the end of the second hand?

-Dave
 
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Jack Neal
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etherton wrote:
Have you thought about either doubling the number of stars or dividing the die roll by two (rounding up) to minimize the randomness of the elections?

If I had put three votes on one side (maybe not all two stars) and then lost because I rolled a 1 and my opponent (who had invested nothing) rolled a 6, I'd be pretty cheesed.

I actually missed the fact that there was a die roll at all in my first reading and would have been quite happy without it. I guess the intent is that you would burn tiles that would help your opponent more than you by using them for votes?

(Also, since people spend money to win elections, it would make a certain amount of thematic sense to drop the stars entirely and just use the printed dollar amount to bolster a vote, with or without the final die roll -- but of course that makes the $0 tiles worthless for voting)

-Dave


I like the dollar amounts used for votes... but I wanted to use another resource to signify the influence of a voting area - hence the stars.

You can try it with +2 if you want for the votes. That may be more fair. I left it at +1 because you aren't always going to win an election. They are pretty random, but +2/star may be more fair. I will try that today.
 
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