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Subject: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. GAME OVER (Duration was 5 months). rss

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Glenn McMaster
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This will be a 10 turn game, using the advanced rules with spice support in combat, and all optional rules of XV, XVI, XVII and XIX.

The Ix, Bene Tleilaxu and Landsraad are in play.

The rules for online play are here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/450908/dune-game-1-game-...

Special Rules.

1. Bidding Round.

a. Cards will go up for bid at about 8am and 6pm (my time in Ontario, Canada), and each will have a 24 hour auction period.
b. When the first card is put up for bid, the second card's bid will start about 12 hours later, BEFORE BIDDING ON THE FIRST CARD IS COMPLETED. Atreides will therefore see the next card about 12 hours before bidding on the first ends. So if Card 1 goes up for bid at 8am, then card two will start for bid at about 530pm the same day. Card 1's bid will terminate at 8am the next day and card 3's will start. Card 2 will terminate at 530pm the next day and card 4's will start.
c. Be sure to specific which card you are bidding for when two are up for bid.
d. You still may not bid more spice than you have.
e. The player who would have started bidding for a card in a face to face game has priority on that card. This means that on their first bid (only) they may bid the same number of spice as the current high bid, becoming the high bid.
f. OVERTIME – In the final 12 hours of a card’s auction any player that overbids another player (or takes priority) qualifies for overtime bidding. At the end of the auction, if more than one player qualifies for overtime, then these players (and only these players) will continue to bid on that card until all but one have passed.

Endgame comment: Overtime bidding is a new feature to this game from others on the forum. It is highly recommended. The player with high bid at the halfway mark of a card (12 hours) automatically qualifies for overtime bidding. Other players qualifying must have bid in the 2nd half of the auction of that card, (the final 12 hours).


2. Spice Payments.
½ of all payments (rounded down) for service go to the Emperor, Ix, BT and Guild. Payment in full must be made, even by an ally.
The Emperor, Ix, Guild and BT (leader revival) keep ½ of their own payment. So if bidding "5" for a
card he wins, the Emperor keeps 3 and pays 2. The Ix retains ½ of his battle spice (if he wins).
The Guild’s ally does NOT pay at half rate, (but the Guild may refund their payment, of course). The Guild does NOT pay at half rate, but instead pays full price and receives half his payment back.
All fractional spice bank payments are rounded in favour of the Faction receiving payment for service.

3. Spice Blows.

There will be three spice blows drawn per turn. There are 4 worms in the spice deck (total of 19 cards).

4. Victory Conditions.

The Shield Wall is a rock victory territory.

Solo win: 3 strongholds
2-way alliance: 4 strongholds
3-way alliance: 5 strongholds
4-way alliance: 6 strongholds
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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. GAME OVER.
New Factions



Endgame Commentary: Faction rules are viable, Landsraad is a middle range battle and mid range income faction. Fits well with any alliance.

Problems:


Alliance: Ability to command ally's battle should not be declared at the start of the round, but rather, at the time the battle in question comes up in player order.

Karama Power: Should be replaced by something better. Perhaps allowing Landsraad to use a karama as a speaker to the Landsraad or something.


Landsraad text (with revised Karama):

Home Planet - Embassy on Kaitain
19 regular and 1 starred purple tokens in reserve.
10 Spice
Free Revival - 1

Leaders -
Baron Moat (6)
Viaconte (6)
Administrator (4)
Commissioner (3)
Representative (1)

Advantages - You regulate access to Dune

1. Any player shipping tokens to Dune via the Guild must pay you one spice.
2. The player harvesting a blow must pay you one spice.
3. Tokens shipping in from off world may not land in a stronghold you control unless you
consent.
4. You may play your special (not battle) treachery cards to the advantage of other players.
5. Your starred token allows your token group to violate occupancy restrictions.

Alliance - You may command your ally's battle. Announce the decision when the battle is the
next to be fought. You supply the battle cards, spice, and the leader.

Karama - You may use a karama card to prevent a player from playing any of his treachery
cards that turn, except on his battle wheel. He may, however, still play a karama card.

Other players may use a karama card to cancel your powers 3,4 (both cards are discarded) or 5.




Endgame commentary:

Probably a little stronger than Landsraad overall. Also a middle range faction.

Revival is limited to 1 starred BT token (BT or other) per turn.

Starred tokens cannot inflitrate against starred tokens (Feydakin, etc).

When filling battle losses from his dial, the the host should have the option not to dial away the BT inflitrators if he does not wish to.

Tokens can be declared as BT at anytime, even to take a stronghold for BT control. However, BT cannot declare tokens as BT if this means a battle is to be fought, but the battle round is already over.

Infiltrated tokens that have been moved can be moved again by the BT in their turn if being declared as BT tokens.

3 free spice per turn might be a little too high - free revival 2 could be about right. 3 Face dancers was too many - reducing this to 2.

Karama For - BT stars in the tanks cannot be sent to the one location.

Karama against - BT starred tokens that are inflitrated are sent to the tanks. BT stars that have declared as BT cannot be sent to the tanks.


BT player's endgame commentary:

Regarding your commentary about the BT income, be careful not to nerf that too much. The BT need an income that is not solely dependent on factions paying to to revive additional troops. It simply doesn't happen often enough in the first 3-4 rounds, and even after that, conservative groups will not end up paying much in the way of spice. The BT need a way to get at least 2 spice per turn, like the Bene Gesserit. And the BT should be able to get 3 free revival for themselves (though the burden of giving up spice income is a neat mechanic that I thought worked well.)

I think the BT faction should be playtested a few more times before changing too many things about them. Note, I never once got into an actual battle aside from an arranged affair with the Guild on the final turn that didn't mean much.

I think the BT, through a few more playtests of this rule set, will fair about middle of the road. They suffer from being a very slow "out of the gate" faction. They don't start earning much on their own until people start dying, which can take ages.


Revised BT for next game will be:

Home Planet - Tleilax

At Start - 17 regular and 3 starred pink tokens in reserve (off planet).
7 spice
Free Revival - Any combination of 3 tokens and spice.

Leaders -
Hidar Fen Ajidica (4)
Bijaz (3)
Tylwyth Waff - 1
Face Dancer (0)
Face Dancer (0)
Face Dancer (0)

Advantages - You control the Tleilaxu Tanks.
1. All spice paid for token and leader revival by other players is paid to you. You may use
your revival for any players' tokens in the 'tanks', including one starred token.
2. One player of your choice may revive one of their leaders from the 'tanks' each turn, paying
the normal amount of spice.
3. You may keep a leader slain in a battle you win by sending a face dancer to the 'tanks' in
its place. (Collect no spice).
4. When one of the leaders you drew at the start of play but did not pick as your traitor enters
the 'tanks', reveal its identity to bring it into your reserves. You may not take it from the 'tanks'
again if it is killed again.
5. Your starred tokens may inflitrate into other factions' reserves and token groups.

Alliance - You may send a face dancer to the 'tanks' to return your ally's just-slain leader to
their reserves.

Karama - You may send your starred tokens from any number of locations (except the 'tanks') to
any one territory or reserve. Replace each in their starting location(s) with the appropriate token,
and in the receiving territory displace the host's tokens back to reserves.

A karama card can be used to send all your currently infiltrated starred tokens to the 'tanks', or
to recover one leader from your reserves
.




Endgame commentary:

This faction tested weakly, probably in 9th place for overall strength. Not recommended without alterations.

Karama - A karama played against Ix cancels his ability to pass any card(s) to ONE player for the rest of the turn. A karama played in response to Ix and his ally trying to swap cancels those two powers from passing any card(s) to each other for the rest of the turn.

Shield Wall Placement - is fairly useless to Ix. Either start 20 tokens in orbit, or allow Ix to pick the territory for start. Maybe even allow starting co-occupation of a city to give Ix one shot at ornithopters on T1.

Battle Power #2 was useless, since Ix is weak in battle. Delete it and use something better.

Possible replacement powers.

1. (FTF play) At the start of the bidding round, Ix recieves 1 spice for every two cards up for bid (rounded down).
(GM'd play): At the start of the bidding round, Ix secretly recieves 1 spice for every card playable as a weapon or defence on the battle wheel (a 'battle' card) that will be up for bid in that round.

2. Ix may at any time retreive cards from the discard pile by sending TWO of his cards to the discard pile. One of those cards must be of LIKE TYPE to the one he is taking. There are three types of cards: Playable in battle, Special, and Karama. Hence, Ix cannot get a Karama from the muck without spending a Karama from his hand.

New Weapons Shipment: When the Ix takes a card(s) from the discard pile, the treachery deck is immediately reshuffled. Atreides does NOT see which card(s) the Ix took.



New Ix version will be:

Home planet - Ix
At Start - 20 gray-green tokens in reserve (off-planet)
5 spice
Free Revival - 1

Leaders -
Vizier (5)
Bronso (4)
Bator (3)
Levenbreche (2)
Baltern (1)

Advantages - You specialize in the distribution of technology.

1. You may pass your treachery card(s) to any player that wants it.
2. At the start of the bidding round you secretly recieve one spice for every card playable as a
weapon or defense in battle coming up in that bidding round. In a face to face game, you
recieve one spice for every two cards in the round (rounded down).
3. You draw one free card from the top of the treachery deck at the end of the bidding round.
(Subject to hand limit, Atreides does not see).
4. Spice spent supporting troops in battle is paid to you. You may not claim spice from
lasegun-shield explosions or traitor call.

Alliance - Your ally draws a free card at the end of the bidding round. (Draw in storm order).

Karama - You may use a karama card to reshuffle the spice deck. You may replace any card(s)
in your hand 1 for 1 with any in the discard pile, except a karama card, (Atreides does not see).
Do not replace the karama you just played.

A karama card may be used to cancel any one of your advantages; you may not pass a card
to that player this turn; you nor your allies draw a free card from the deck.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


BT Power Number 5:


5. When a player revives non-starred tokens you may substitute one of your starred tokens in your reserves for one of their tokens being revived. Your starred token enters their reserves and one of the tokens they tried to revive remains in the ‘tanks’. You keep their spice payment.

When a player ships (or ‘accompanies’) you may substitute any tokens you have in their reserves one-for-one with the non-starred token(s) they were shipping. Announce your decision after they’ve completed their movement. During their subsequent movements these act as if they were the host’s tokens and may freely accompany them wherever they go. They remain under the host’s command until you declare them as BT. Your tokens accompanying the BG may only break co-existence by declaring as BT. (Ignore occupancy restrictions).

During the formulation of battle plans you must announce which opponent your tokens will fight for, (you must fight for your ally). Your ally must always send your tokens to the ‘tanks’, and your host may always pick your tokens to absorb his dial.

You cannot declare as BT after the battle round.

Landsraad Alliance Power - if losing to the Harkonnen for your ally, Harkonnen captures their leader, not Landsraad's



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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
Alterations to Existing Factions and Treachery Draw.


Traitor Draw.


Each Player other than Harkonnen will secretly select one these options at the start of the game. (You do not have to announce which choice you make):

1. Draw 3 leaders and be guaranteed one safe leader of your top three.
2. Draw 4 leaders at random and pick two traitors.
The BT’s three named leaders are included in the treachery draw, but their three face dancers are not.



The Harkonnen may:

1. Draw 5 leaders with one his top three leaders guaranteed as safe.
2. Draw 6 leaders at random; all are traitors.

Recommended - this alteration brings treachery back as a factor, but is not overpowering. In this game 4 players took 2 traitors in 4 picks and 4 players took a safe leader on 3 picks

Faction Additional Powers

All optional rules are in play except the Harkonnen Karama power, which is altered. Each faction also has the following additional advantages.

Atreides.

1. The Kwisatz Haderach on your battle wheel makes you immune to the ‘voice’.
2. You see both treachery cards currently up for bid.
3. You see all cards coming in the spice deck next turn.

Some players think Atreides becomes too powerful with this. In PBEM the prescience is hurt by allowing all players to keep notes. It is also assumed that the Ix's power will damage the prescience further by mixing hands.

Bene Gesserit.


1. A token co-existing in Arrakeen or Carthag during the Spice Blow Round allows your co-existing tokens located in any stronghold on Dune to use ornithopters. They do not have to co-exist in their arrival territory.
2. If you have yet to declare non-coexistence in a territory that turn you may ship your ‘accompanying’ token to any stronghold on Dune.

BG is poor enough and the voice is weaker with the changes to the treachery deck - these changes might be necessary to keep the faction viable. The original BG player was overwelmed with the complexity of the variant and did not use his added abilities. The second BG player did not have enough time to overcome this problem, but was using the new powers to quickly create BG stacks in strategic locations.

Emperor


1. Whenever you wish and without shipping cost you may switch starred tokens from your reserves, replacing them one-for-one with your regular tokens on Dune, returning the regular tokens to your (or your ally’s) reserves.

Emperor Alliance - Your starred tokens may cohabitate in territories with your ally as if they were his and can be dialled by your ally in battle.

Recommended. It's funny, no matter what the rules set, the Emperor's destiny seems to go to Dune and get clobbered.

Fremen.
1. Outside strongholds you dial at full strength without paying spice.

Fremen Alliance - Your ally can ride the worm

Fremen Karama - Summon a worm to a territory and yours or your ally’s tokens located there may immediately ride it to any territory, (subject to storm and occupancy rules). You may even summon a worm during the battle round, but you may not initiate a battle with the worm.

The Fremen player felt the changes made Fremen a fully competative faction. Note in this game that Fremen suffered the same "problem" as the Emperor in that easy early access to Dune led quickly to many Fremen tokens in the tanks.

Guild


1. If victorious you may spend up to your leaders value in additional spice after battle; for each spice one token from your dial is prevented from going to the ‘tanks’.

Guild Alliance - One of your allies may move when he chooses if you move in your normal turn sequence.

The Guild alliance power works very well, but the added battle power is not really a Guild theme even though it did work OK. Guild needs something extra to be viable, and another movement ability is not going to be it.

Harkonnen.


1. Return a captured leader to the owning player to use one of their faction powers, or to use their services without payment. You may use their power during the formulation of battle plans if you intend to play their leader in battle.

Alliance –Your ally may hold five treachery cards.

Karama (supercession of original Karama power) – Pick one faction and name a number of card types up to the number of cards they hold. They must give you all cards you announce and for each card that you take you must give them one of your own in return.

The original hand-swap rule is probably still OK. I suspect the Harkonnen is the most powerful faction
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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
Treachery deck.

The Treachery Deck is 56 Cards:

Snooper -4
Bloodhound-2
Shield - 4
Armor -2
Projectile Weapon-5
Explosive Weapon-1
Poison Weapon-5
Biologic Weapon-1
Poison Tooth Weapon-1
Body Double-1
Lasegun-1
Karama-3
Worthless-6
Cheap Hero(ine)-3
Family Atomics-1
Hajr-1
Tleilaxu Ghola-1
Weather Control-1
Truthtrance-2
Harvester-1
Cone of Silence-1
Kanly Duel-2
Retreat-1
Thumper-1
Reinforcement-1
Ornithopers-1
Fanatical Tactics-1
Poachers-1
Speaker of the Landsraad-1

Treachery cards are:

Poison Tooth - Kills both leaders if your leader was not killed by your opponent's weapon. There is no defence against Poison Tooth. (Discard after use)

Body Double: Your opponent's weapon kills another of your leaders and the one on your battle wheel survives. A Lasegun/Shield explosion kills both you leaders. Poison Tooth kills your real leader. (Discard after use)

Armor - Defends against Projectile and Explosive Weapon. Does not trigger
lasegun/shield explosion.

Bloodhound - Defends against Biologic, Explosive and Poison Weapon.

Explosive Weapon - Kills a leader not protected by Shield, Armor or Bloodhound.

Biologic Weapon - Kills a leader not protected by Bloodhound or Snooper

Abilities – These cards are played to obtain a special ability which you retain even after discarding the card.

Ornithopters: You may use ornithopter movement into any space within three territories of the stronghold you name. Lost if you do not control that stronghold during the Collection Round.

Fanatical Tactics: Play this card and you may thereafter use two weapons or two defenses in battle (neither can contradict the ‘voice’ and both must be announced to the prescience. You still may only play two weapon/defence cards in total). Lost when you use it and lose the battle, or to Lasegun/Shield.

Poachers: After you play this card you may thereafter poach from any blow adjacent in sector and territory to your tokens (even if in a stronghold) at the rate of 1 spice per token. You do not have to pay the Landsraad to poach. If the blow is being harvested by another player, first one of their tokens harvests, then one of yours, then another of theirs, and so on, until either all tokens have harvested or all spice is collected.

Special:


Thumper: Played just after the spice blow cards are revealed. Summon a worm to any one of the spice blow piles if you wish, or send one or all worms revealed back into the spice deck (if all are returned, there is no nexus). You may exchange one of the blows revealed for another of your choice remaining in the spice deck. Then, reshuffle the remaining cards in the spice deck.

Harvester: Move a spice blow to any stronghold during the spice blow round. The harvester remains in the blow territory, and can be destroyed there by a worm, the storm, or lasegun/shield explosion. Otherwise, the player controlling the harvester territory takes control of it during the collection round and may send it to another blow in the next spice blow round.

Cone of Silence Select one player and choose one of two penalties. Either;
(1) They may not share their alliance power that turn or;
(2) They may not trade spice with other players; all spice they send and
receive from other players for any purpose goes on the receiving player's
dot, and is collected only in the collection round.

Reinforcement – Your faction leader (value 7) is brought into in play. There is no consequence for their loss save that you may not revive it.

Retreat – Anytime prior to the revelation of battle plans some or all of your tokens may retreat to
an adjacent unoccupied territory.

The Speaker of the Landsraad – Use the alliance power of any faction as if it were your own.

Kanly Duel - Challenge a duel for an offense made against you.

The Rules of Kanly are found in Dune Game 6.



Review of cards after play:

Poison Tooth – Weak.

Body Double - Great

Armor/Bloodhound/Explosive /Biologic Weapon – Work well to gum up the voice a bit.

Ornithopters -weak

Fanatical Tactics - good

Poachers - good

Special:


Thumper – needs to be simplified. Otherwise good to weak.

Harvester -great

Cone of Silence – needs to be simplified. Otherwise good. Timing problem on the play – alter to allow play in response, like a karama.

Reinforcement – Great.

Retreat – Mainly weak, except when you need it. Then it’s great.

The Speaker of the Landsraad – Great. The most ‘fiddly’ card in the deck.

Kanly Duel – Great or sucks, depending on personal outlook. I should suspect Feyd Rautha thought kanly great before the battle at Arrakeen, then not so much after Paul stuck his knife through his jaw. Some players really like it, others thought it was disruptive and too lucky. I think that how you use the card determines in large part how lucky it is. A kanly duel takes 1-2 days, with 7 players waiting around for the outcome. Then again, we waited around all the time for players to act for 1-2 days anyway...

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Doug Green
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
Sign me up for Harkonnen. I'd also be happy with the Emperor.
 
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Doug Green
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Actually, after seeing the new rules for Hark's Hand stealing ability I'd rather go with the emperor.
 
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Yeah, let's give this another go.

Factionwise I don't mind - preference for Atreides or Ix.
 
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Dan Owsen
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I'd like to play. I wouldn't mind trying the Bene Tleilaxu, but I'll take anyone.
 
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RJ
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
I'd like to play of course. I'd like to play the Bene Tleilaxu, as well. Want to roll off for it mummykitty?
 
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Glenn McMaster
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Four signed up, five more needed. BT and Emperor are taken.

Each player send me word offline whether you want to draw 3 leaders or 4 when you know your faction so can make your choice.

Jon - choose between Ix or Atreides. You played well last game, so I'd slot you for Ix if I had my choice.

Re - BT. Decide between you, but I would like an experienced player to try the new factions. (Ryan played well last game).

For newbies, the Guild and BG are probably the best.





 
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Doug Green
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Just to clarify the Hark's Karama ability... They have to announce specific cards (like shield) as opposed to type (projectile defense), correct?
 
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GLENN239 wrote:

Jon - choose between Ix or Atreides. You played well last game, so I'd slot you for Ix if I had my choice.


Your choice it is, then.
 
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Jamgar
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
Nice adjustments there Glenn.

I'd be in again with a preference for Fremen, but will take any.

That said, I'm happy to drop if people who haven't just played want a shot
 
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Dan Owsen
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I'm fine with whatever faction. I've played before but not a lot recently. Did just finish a forum game where I re-learned a lot.

I'm happy to cede the BT to Ryan. If I can take the Bene Gesserit that would be fine.

Thanks!
 
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Fair enough, I'll be the BT then. I've sent my traitor draw decision into Glenn for when we get our full compliment of players. Hopefully the BT will be a factor in this game.
 
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Jamgar
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So Glenn, with the traitor draw, players drawing 4 leaders get two traitors, players drawing 3 leaders get no traitors?
 
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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 5 signed up. Need Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild, Landsraad
Ix, BT, BG, Emperor Fremen – taken

Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild, Landsraad - remaining

Quote:
Just to clarify the Hark's Karama ability... They have to announce specific cards (like shield) as opposed to type (projectile defense), correct?


Yes, the specific card types – shield, lasegun, karama, etc. Harkonnen can still devastate a player, but not as easily as before.

Quote:
So Glenn, with the traitor draw, players drawing 4 leaders get two traitors, players drawing 3 leaders get no traitors?

Players drawing 3 leaders get 1 traitor and 1 guaranteed safe leader of their top 3. Players drawing 4 can pick 2 traitors, but have no guaranteed safe leader.
 
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Ty Hansen
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What can I say, I'm in.

I've now been the Baron in two 9 player games, so I think I'd like someone else.
Landsraad for me, if you want experience there? If not, I'll take whoever is left over.

Cheers,
Ty
 
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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. Sign up.
Landsraad you are. Welcome aboard Ty.

Send me word offline - do you want to draw 3 or 4 leaders?
 
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Peter De Bruycker
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Is there still room for a newbie?

I'd love to play the game, but have no experience. I only partially read the rules, but I'm willing to do my homework
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Glenn McMaster
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Welcome aboard Peter! I'd recommend you go with the Guild. Is that OK?
 
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Augustine Ng
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Hi, I would like to sign up too. Could I play the Harkonnen? Have experience playing before.
 
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Peter De Bruycker
Belgium
Gent (Desteldonk)
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Glenn,

woohoo, thanks for giving me a chance.

The Guild is fine for me.
 
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Glenn McMaster
Canada
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Ok, Peter is Guild, Augustine is Harkonnen.

Guild and Harkonnen - send word offline on your traitor pick option (3 or 4 leaders for Guild, 5 or 6 leaders for Harkonnen).

 
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Glenn McMaster
Canada
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Re: Dune Game 7 - Variant 9-player. 6 signed up. Atreides, Harkonnen, Guild still needed.
Also need the leader draw selection for Landsraad.
 
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