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Subject: Example of combat with resource abilities rss

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Paulo Santoro
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Please tell me what in these (fictitious) stories is right or wrong according to the rules. The numbers help referring. 6 and 12 are, of course, exclusive. A and B are the players talking.

First story
A
(01) I play this 4-Infantry in new front.

B
(02) I play this 2-Infantry in the same front.
(03) My 2-Infantry is killed.
(04) Your 4-Infantry receives 2 Wounds.
(05) With my Mathematics and 1 Iron I give more 2 Wounds and kill your 4-Infantry.

A
(06) I have Animal Husbandry, but you called the use of Mathematics and Iron first. Too bad I can't heal the wounds because the unit is already killed now.

Second story
A
(07) I play this 4-Infantry in new front.

B
(08) I play this 2-Infantry in the same front.
(09) My 2-Infantry is killed.
(10) Your 4-Infantry receives 2 Wounds.
(11) With my Mathematics and 1 Iron I give more 2 Wounds and kill your 4-Infantry.

A
(12) No, you don't. I have Animal Husbandry and any time a player with Animal Husbandry or Biology receives a wound he has the opportunity to use its power. I heal both Wounds.
(13) I used Animal Husbandry first, so you don't lose the Iron and you still can use Mathematics.
(14) My 4-Inf now has 0 wound.

B
(15) With my Mathematics and 1 Iron I give 3 wounds to your 4-Inf.

A
(16) I have Mass Media. I use 1 Spy to cancel your Mathematics' resource ability.
(17) You lose the Iron anyway.

B
(18) I also have Mass Media. I use 1 Spy to cancel your Mass Media's resource ability.
(19) You lose the Spy anyway.
(20) I cancelled your cancel, so my Mathematics is still working and I give 3 Wounds to your 4-Inf.

Third story
A
(21) I play this 4-Infantry in new front.

B
(22) I play this 2-Infantry in the same front.
(23) My 2-Infantry is killed.
(24) Your 4-Infantry receives 2 Wounds.
(25) I have Mathematics. I don't have 1 Iron, but I use this culture card "A generous gift". I can play it as an Iron, I gave 2 more wounds to your 4-Inf and kill it.

A
(26) Wait. I don't have a way to cancel your resource ability, but I use my Jousting Tourney* ("Cancel a culture event") to cancel the use of your "A generous gift". So you don't have an Iron to use your resource ability.

---------
* Another question: could I use Bread and circuses as well in this case? I don't think so.
 
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Snappy Dan
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Based on my understanding of the rules, the 1st and 3rd stories are correct. The key line in the rules is (emphasis mine):

Any unit that suffers wounds equal to its strength is immediately killed and returned faceup to the bottom of the unit deck it was originally acquired from.
 
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Ian Kelly
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The first and third stories are fine. In the second story, player A cannot use Animal Husbandry until it is his combat turn, so he cannot use it to save the unit. The Mass Media part is correct. And no, you could not use Bread and Circuses in place of Jousting Tourney in that scenario, because the Generous Gift does not target you.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Also in the second story you used Mathematics twice (all resource abilities are once per turn). Someone healing wouldn't prevent your ability from happening, but as you can see below (and as Ian mentioned) that can't happen because of timing. In other words, healing isn't a counter it is an ability in its own right.

Your turn begins.
You can use combat powers.
Play a unit (or not if you are out).
You can use combat powers.
Next player turn.

So your opponent has no chance to play combat powers of his own until you are done (exceptions are resource abilities/culture cards to counter what you are doing).
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Daniel, in the "logics" of second story, he doesn't use the Mathematics the first time.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Please remember: Animal Husbandry healing is NOT a resource ability. I think it would be more logical according the rules (and more easy) the way in the second history.
 
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Ian Kelly
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PauloSantoro wrote:
Please remember: Animal Husbandry healing is NOT a resource ability. I think it would be more logical according the rules (and more easy) the way in the second history.


The UFAQ thread contains the official ruling from Kevin Wilson on this:

Quote:
Can a player use a healing tech (e.g., Biology) after his opponent uses a "deal wounds" ability (e.g, Mathematics) but before that same opponent plays a unit (or vice versa, if the opponent chose to play the unit first, then use the ability)?

For specific timing on abilities, I think of it like this:

A player's "turn" consists of:

1. Opportunity to use ability
2. Play card
3. Opportunity to use an ability.
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Daniel Hammond
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PauloSantoro wrote:
Daniel, in the "logics" of second story, he doesn't use the Mathematics the first time.


I see he said that but the reasoning for it was:

I do X
Wait I want to do Y first (so X doesn't happen)
I do X

But really what happens is

I do X
You may want to do Y first but it happens after my X which will happen (unless countered)
X is no longer available to be used.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Daniel, this has no relevance anymore, but please observe that you may be confused by the fact that the second history is wrong according the rules. But, if it was right, the wounded player decided to use the Animal Husbandry before the opponent could use Mathematics, so in fact the mathematics and iron wouldn't have be used.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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I am not confused. There is nothing in the game that says: "Use this ability when another player wants to do an action, your action goes first." There are counters to things, but that says you try your action and I try to cancel it. There is no "undo" for declared actions. So if he spent an Iron for Mathematics and then someone says I am going to use Animal Husbandry then both actions have been declared and happen in the order that they are supposed to (if there is confusion as to the order I understand letting the AH guy take back his action since it actually wasn't his turn to take an action, but I don't see a scenario where the Mathematics guy gets his action interrupted except by counter actions of which Healing is not).
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Daniel, we all agree that the second story is wrong because of the use of Animal Husbandry! The way I wrote the Second story was to show other thing. In fact, the first time the player uses Mathematics there it was a mistake according the hipotetical rules in the second story. Understand? He couldn't have used Mathematics because, in the second story, "any time, when an unit is wounded, the player have an opportunity to heal it if he has Animal Husbandry". I will even reword that:

...
(10) Your 4-Infantry receives 2 Wounds.
(11) With my Mathematics and 1 Iron I give more 2 Wounds and kill your 4-Infantry.

A
(12) No, you don't. Hey, you forgot the rules! You said that my 4-inf receives wounds, I have Animal Husbandry and any time a player with Animal Husbandry or Biology receives a wound he has the opportunity to use its power. It was my time to decide about that, so in fact you didn't say that you use Mathematics. Pay attention next time, before trying to do an action when you are not supposed to I heal both Wounds.
(13) I used Animal Husbandry first, so you don't lose the Iron and you still can use Mathematics.

I read your messages and I understood where you were wrong. Please read my message carefully too. Thank you very much.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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PauloSantoro wrote:
Daniel, we all agree that the second story is wrong because of the use of Animal Husbandry! The way I wrote the Second story was to show other thing. In fact, the first time the player uses Mathematics there it was a mistake according the hipotetical rules in the second story. Understand? He couldn't have used Mathematics because, in the second story, "any time, when an unit is wounded, the player have an opportunity to heal it if he has Animal Husbandry". I will even reword that:

...
(10) Your 4-Infantry receives 2 Wounds.
(11) With my Mathematics and 1 Iron I give more 2 Wounds and kill your 4-Infantry.

A
(12) No, you don't. Hey, you forgot the rules! You said that my 4-inf receives wounds, I have Animal Husbandry and any time a player with Animal Husbandry or Biology receives a wound he has the opportunity to use its power. It was my time to decide about that, so in fact you didn't say that you use Mathematics. Pay attention next time, before trying to do an action when you are not supposed to I heal both Wounds.
(13) I used Animal Husbandry first, so you don't lose the Iron and you still can use Mathematics.

I read your messages and I understood where you were wrong. Please read my message carefully too. Thank you very much.


OK. In your hypothetical situation where you not only were not playing by the rules but also making up additional rules that were not explicitly stated, I didn't take into account your unstated additionally made up rules, while explaining not only did you not have the opportunity to play Animal Husbandry before I killed your unit, but also that no power in the game happens before an already declared power resolves. Maybe this is simply lost in translation, my Spanish is good enough that I can follow Portuguese fairly well. Bottom line for me is we are arguing semantics of a hypothetical that has been debunked as invalid within the normal rules of the game and despite helping you see exactly how it is invalid you are telling me how I am wrong.
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Morten Dolling
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Re: Example of combat with resource abilities - wounds?
I'm new to this game, and still quite confused with the wounds.

When can you deal wounds (the tech ones), and when are you allowed to heal wounds?

Can you only deal / heal when it is your turn in the battle, or can you at any time when xx units are on the table, deal and heal?

Very pleased to hear, so my wife and I can play this game again, instead of arguing over it all the time ;o)

Thanks beforehand.

Dolling
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Combat rounds basically work this way:

Player A can play combat abilities
Player A must play a unit card (if he has any left)
Player A can play combat abilities
Player B can play combat abilities
Player B must play a unit card (if he has any left)
Player B can play combat abilities
etc.

This continues until both players are out of cards (and according to a new ruling) until both players don't want to play combat abilities (I guess when they both pass).
 
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