Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
65 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: The Tree Of Life rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: ancient_astronuts [+] [View All]
rob stone
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
Hi everyone, just reasoning out that life Yahweh has within himself, which is the same life the tree of life produces, that life is cool stuff. Thanks for any reasoning insights one has on this tree of life series.

Post 1 of the tree of life series

If one really thinks about it, having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. After all, that’s what the serpent omitted in his speech, before Eve ate off the tree of knowledge of good and bad. The serpent said, “You are not going to die, but Yahweh knows that as soon as you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like divine beings, who know good and bad.” It’s true in one sense, but false in another; the serpent sort of omitted to point out, that its the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a Yahweh like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh. Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. For Adam and Eve to have true freedom of will, Adam and Eve have to have the freedom to rebel. This is why this tree is in the garden, next to the tree of life; instead, evil will come about as a result of the clash of the will of Yahweh, and the will of humans, who happen to have the freedom to rebel. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Yet, evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior. The drama of Adam and Eve’s life should revolve not around the search for eternal life, nor preoccupation with immortality; it was not in Yahweh’s design for this kind of drama. It was Yahweh’s design for the tree of life to have been eaten of, there was no danger to Adam and Eve going on eternally, being immortal. The eating off the tree of knowledge of good and bad, has caused a moral conflict and tension between Yahweh’s good design for creation, and the free will of human beings that can corrupt that good design. Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. Man’s disobedience is the cause of the human predicament. Human freedom can be at one and the same time an omen of disaster, and a challenge, and opportunity.

So despite Adam and Eve’s newfound mortality, humans are going to be a force to be reckoned with. They’re unpredictable to the very Yahweh who created them. Yahweh has to modify his plan, by barring access to the tree of life; that was not something presumably Yahweh planned to do. Adam and Eve had access to this tree up to that point, as long as their will conformed to the will of Yahweh, there was no danger to their going on eternally, being immortal. Once they discovered their moral freedom, once they discovered that they could thwart Yahweh and work evil in the world, and abuse and corrupt all that Yahweh had created, then Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life. That would be tantamount to creating divine enemies, immortal enemies. So Yahweh must maintain the upper hand in his struggle with these humans who have learned to defy him. And Yahweh maintains the upper hand in this, the fact that humans eventually must die. Yahweh stations the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword to guard the way back to the tree of life, once Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. The tree of life is now inaccessible; no humans have access to immortality, and the pursuit of immortality is futile. So it might be then that Yahweh really spoke the truth after all, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad did bring death to humankind.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
badge
One of the Original Twelve
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rob, do you favor Settlers or Carcassonne as a dry, lifeless gateway?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
I always thought that Darren Aronofsky's movie, "The Fountain" was an underrated film.

Not his best (that would still be "Requiem for a Dream"), but definitely worth watching. Probably the best movie that discusses the 'Tree of Life' out there.

Darilian
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall P.
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
badge
There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Mechanicsburg
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
I don't want happiness by halves, nor is half of sorrow what I want. Yet there's a pillow I would share, where gently pressed against a cheek like a helpless star, a falling star, a ring glimmers on the finger of a hand.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Darilian wrote:
I always thought that Darren Aronofsky's movie, "The Fountain" was an underrated film.

Not his best (that would still be "Requiem for a Dream"), but definitely worth watching. Probably the best movie that discusses the 'Tree of Life' out there.

Darilian


Awesome movie and a brilliant score too.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Gaudreau
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not quite sure what you're getting at, but your post seems to limit God, saying that humans were unpredictable to God. The Bible seems to be clear that God is omniscient (all-knowing. 1 John 3; Ps. 147; Ps. 139, etc.), and so the question is more of "why did He create humans knowing this would happen?"

You also have a low view of God when you say He considers humans a "force to be reckoned with," yet the Bible is pretty clear on God's omnipotence (Jer. 32; Luke 1; Ps. 115, etc.). If you're saying that His power is in His ability to choose between right and wrong, I don't see that supported anywhere.

Also, the life in the fruit vs. the life in God... your suggesting that God also eats the fruit, or God put His life into the fruit? If this account of creation is true, my own theory is that Adam and Eve would not have eternal life unless they kept eating the fruit (Genesis seems pretty clear on this). That's why God had to prevent them from continuing to eat it. After that, you see Adam and Eve's descendants living for hundreds of years, each generation dying a bit sooner (more or less). So my theory is that the life from the fruit was still in their systems, if you will, but eventually "wore off" until we now die at a relatively early age (compared to them).

Finally, if human beings are the "only potential source of evil", as you say, then what happened to the serpent? Do you not believe in Satan?

[edit: spelling and grammar]
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If he didn't want the drama he wouldn't have put the tree of knowledge in the garden to begin with.

That's part of the inconsistency in this story for me. You put out two different kinds of cookies in front of a naive 3 year old and tell them they can never eat one of them. You leave the room and your black-sheep brother (their uncle) tells them that the forbidden cookie is so yummy and so much better that the other one. The kid eats it. You then punish the kid by telling them they can never ever watch TV again? And neither can their children or their children? What is the lesson there? Personally, no offense to the many who hold this dear as part of their religion, I think this is a broken parable that does not hold up to scrutiny. It's not exactly fair to hold someone accountable for making a right/wrong decision before they knew the difference between right and wrong!

Though, if you adhere to the fallible god theory, I guess this story works.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Joshx wrote:

Finally, if human beings are the "only potential source of evil", as you say, then what happened to the serpent? Do you not believe in Satan?


Was/is Satan/The Serpent evil? Or was he an agent of God sent to reveal the evil in humankind to itself. If Satan's purpose is to test the righteous to prove their worthiness, he is not the evil, he only exposing it where it sleeps. All the other brimstone trappings that have been laid on his mantle are from centuries of invention, romanticizing and boogy-man tactics by those who would try to bring people to God using fear.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mdp4828 wrote:
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?

How could it be literal? The OP makes no sense.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Gaudreau
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:

Was/is Satan/The Serpent evil? Or was he an agent of God sent to reveal the evil in humankind to itself. If Satan's purpose is to test the righteous to prove their worthiness, he is not the evil, he only exposing it where it sleeps. All the other brimstone trappings that have been laid on his mantle are from centuries of invention, romanticizing and boogy-man tactics by those who would try to bring people to God using fear.


I guess that's one way to look at it.

Why then, would he tempt/test Jesus? He'd have no need to. Why was hell created for him (Matt. 25:41) as a destination of punishment if he was an agent of God? Why would the Bible describe him as a "murderer from the beginning," and the "father of lies" (John 8:44)? Why would Jesus call him "the evil one" if he only exposed evil (Matt. 13:19)? Why would he fight against God and try to kill His son (Rev. 12)? Why would he accuse the righteous before God (Job 1, Rev. 12:10)?

Sure, people have used the teachings of the devil in wrong ways, but seriously, what teachings haven't been twisted and abused? Even non-religious ones like capitalism and socialism, etc.? I'm not saying it's right to do that, I'm just saying it happens. And I don't think anyone uses fear of the devil to try and get people to follow God nowadays.

[edit - sp. and gr.]
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?

How could it be literal? The OP makes no sense.


And this would prevent someone from taking it literally why?
11 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?

How could it be literal? The OP makes no sense.


And this would prevent someone from taking it literally why?

OK Point taken but what would be taken literally exactly?

P.S.
Yes, the traditional Christian bastardization/mispronunciation of the Name annoys me generally, but I also have no idea what the OP is actually trying to say.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall P.
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
badge
There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?

How could it be literal? The OP makes no sense.


I'd argue it doesn't make sense either way. It's just a matter of how far off the rails we are here.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Joshx wrote:

I guess that's one way to look at it.

Why then, would he tempt/test Jesus? He'd have no need to. Why was hell created for him (Matt. 25:41) as a destination of punishment if he was an agent of God? Why would the Bible describe him as a "murderer from the beginning," and the "father of lies" (John 8:44)? Why would Jesus call him "the evil one" if he only exposed evil (Matt. 13:19)? Why would he fight against God and try to kill His son (Rev. 12)? Why would he accuse the righteous before God (Job 1, Rev. 12:10)?

Sure, people have used the teachings of the devil in wrong ways, but seriously, what teachings haven't been twisted and abused? Even non-religious ones like capitalism and socialism, etc.? I'm not saying it's right to do that, I'm just saying it happens. And I don't think anyone uses fear of the devil to try and get people to follow God nowadays.

[edit - sp. and gr.]


Well, all those references are from the New Testament. Coming from a non-religious point of view, so I have no skin in the game, I would say that the Devil got a whole different interpretation by the early Christian Church. One that spoke a little bit easier to the plain folk who were put off by some of the high-falutin nuances of Jewish religious philosophy.

One way you could look at it is that the New Testament is not infallible and includes the same manipulation that churches have used since it's "codification". I believe the Jewish view of Satan is bit different than the Christian, though I don't claim that it fits mine presented here. I only am looking at possibilities.

Who knows, maybe God wants you to think Satan is evil, but is really just an Angel in disguise. It would make more sense that way if God really was omniscient. Otherwise, God is guilty of imperfection by allowing/creating Satan to begin with. In this light, Satan serves a purpose to slowly awaken children to the differences between good and evil and when a person reaches a certain level of enlightenment, his double-agent persona isn't needed anymore, it's between you and God and your imperfections are your own.

Lets not forget that nothing in the Bible is Jesus's own account and could easily have been tweaked by the early church as needed.

Thinking further, don't you see Satan as kind of a cop out and way to get out of personal responsibility? I mean, it doesn't seem like a God trying to get you to be a good person would give you someone else to blame for your sinning. Once someone realizes that all evil comes from their own decisions, Satan isn't needed anymore. When many people make the wrong decision, evil multiplies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm glad Moshe is posting again. I like how you can actually hear his beard bristle in aggravation in these threads.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam I am
United States
Portage
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
What did I tell you...
badge
NO PICKLE!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The picture of the dude who wrote "The Giving Tree" (on the back of the book) is too scary for small children to see.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall P.
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
badge
There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
Is this supposed to be metaphorical or literal?

How could it be literal? The OP makes no sense.


And this would prevent someone from taking it literally why?

OK Point taken but what would be taken literally exactly?


Well, the OP has names of people and things, dialog, actions, all of which could be interpreted as literally existing things and events at a definite place in space-time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Gaudreau
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:

Thinking further, don't you see Satan as kind of a cop out and way to get out of personal responsibility? I mean, it doesn't seem like a God trying to get you to be a good person would give you someone else to blame for your sinning. Once someone realizes that all evil comes from their own decisions, Satan isn't needed anymore. When many people make the wrong decision, evil multiplies.


But Christianity doesn't teach that we can blame all our sins/faults/whatevers on Satan or anyone else. It teaches that each individual human being is culpable for their own decisions. That's why in the OT you read God saying (if you don't think it was changed later) "Choose this day who you will serve," and in the NT you have Jesus saying ("") "Follow me." The other NT writers say "each man will be judged according his actions." Anyone who teaches we can blame it on someone else is pulling a fast one on you.

So you don't think the Jewish scriptures were "tweaked" over the centuries as the Jews needed?

Lastly, you said God would be imperfect if He created Satan. Then why not use the same argument with humans? Satan was created as an angel, but chose to rebel against God. Humans were created sinless, but chose to rebel against God. The real question is why He did these things, knowing that they would choose to disobey.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Gaudreau
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Moshe, why do you assume the OP is a Christian? Could be Jewish. Or any number of things, actually.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Joshx wrote:
So you don't think the Jewish scriptures were "tweaked" over the centuries as the Jews needed?


Scripture law forbids it. What words appear on what lines of a Torah cannot even be altrered.

There are no different versions like there are for bibles. There's no given translations.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam I am
United States
Portage
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
What did I tell you...
badge
NO PICKLE!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yahweh smells a sock puppet.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
flag msg tools
badge
I'll think of something witty to put here...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought this thread was going to be about this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Joshx wrote:

But Christianity doesn't teach that we can blame all our sins/faults/whatevers on Satan or anyone else. It teaches that each individual human being is culpable for their own decisions. That's why in the OT you read God saying (if you don't think it was changed later) "Choose this day who you will serve," and in the NT you have Jesus saying ("") "Follow me." The other NT writers say "each man will be judged according his actions." Anyone who teaches we can blame it on someone else is pulling a fast one on you.

Yes, but the existence of Satan at all sets the stage in the context of "battling Satan". But people aren't, they are battling themselves. Adding a Satan mechanic into the game just confuses people and allows them to externalize their faults. "I wouldn't have cheated on my wife but Satan tempted me and I am weak." You can't deny that there is a lot of rhetoric out there about being afraid of Satan and his work against God.

Joshx wrote:

Lastly, you said God would be imperfect if He created Satan. Then why not use the same argument with humans? Satan was created as an angel, but chose to rebel against God. Humans were created sinless, but chose to rebel against God. The real question is why He did these things, knowing that they would choose to disobey.


So people would know how great and good God and creation really are? I think the whole thing looks like a setup. Trick people into disobeying and learning how to be bad. Set an angel on their trail to embody evil and when people have lived enough and really learn the difference between good and evil, they see the wonder of what is. If you ate gruel every day and then got some ravioli's you'd appreciate it much more. If you started off with ravioli, you wouldn't know how good you had it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Further, Satan is allowed to exist, he serves an important purpose. There but for the grace of God goes he. The people of Sodom weren't so lucky, their purpose was to be the centerpiece of a you-better-watch-out story. If his purpose suits God's plan, then he cannot be evil as God's plan would then also be evil.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Hague
United Kingdom
Bristol
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
RAWKET LAWNCHA!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heliconia wrote:
Darilian wrote:
I always thought that Darren Aronofsky's movie, "The Fountain" was an underrated film.

Not his best (that would still be "Requiem for a Dream"), but definitely worth watching. Probably the best movie that discusses the 'Tree of Life' out there.

Darilian


Awesome movie and a brilliant score too.


Sorry to derail, but WHAAAT?

I felt like my mind had been raped after watching that film. Now Pi, otoh, that was a great film.

I now return you to your thread.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.