Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Troyes» Forums » General

Subject: Turn order effect? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steve Kingsbury
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmb
I have to say I've only played this once but i did wonder whether there was a turn order effect. In our 4 player game we experienced the anguish of being last and having no dice left when it came to your turn. A fair bit of money sure but very little to do with it.

I then noticed the final result: the players in 1st and 2nd had only been last once and the 3rd and 4th twice. Fluke?

Anyone else out there noticed this?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sandblack wrote:
In our 4 player game we experienced the anguish of being last and having no dice left when it came to your turn. A fair bit of money sure but very little to do with it.


Where are all the dice going? There's 18 dice on the board to use each round. A player can only use 3 on a turn, and many times uses less. There should be a good 8 or so dice at worse waiting when player 4 takes his first turn.

Last gets access to less dice, but last also doesn't lose dice dice fighting the black dice.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
Germany
München
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Wiggle It!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Plus, they get much money, because if the first two players construct sets of 3 dice, they have to pay 6 Deniers per die they take from the other players.

As for the turn order: The game is designed, so that every player is starting player once ALL cards are revealed.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm with Steve here. I've been the last player and never felt like there weren't dice from which to choose my action.

On the number of turns in the game: thanks Thomas for explaining why they chose the number of rounds they did. I never understood it until now. I enjoy the game so much I wish it lasted longer.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sébastien dujardin
Belgium
Grandmetz
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Almecho wrote:
Plus, they get much money, because if the first two players construct sets of 3 dice, they have to pay 6 Deniers per die they take from the other players.

As for the turn order: The game is designed, so that every player is starting player once ALL cards are revealed.


Indeed, Every player is starter player once all cards are in game : this is the most important. For the first turns, the balance is there because the black dice are for the first player, because if he want your dice, he give you money and because there are good actions with small dice (with or without influence).
Have fun cool
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Played today and I went last at start. For the first 3 turns, other players got one more action than I did (based on when last die was taken).

When I got to be starting player, there were so many black dice I was assured to have to fight a 6, when the first two guys got to fight lower numbers because there were fewer even cards out then.

Finally, the game is 6 turns with 4 players, so two guys got first choice of dice to use twice.

I think it is a problem. I think next time we will try +1 Denier and +1 influence to 3rd player and +2/+2 to fourth player.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dick Hunt
United States
Orlando
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Almecho wrote:
Plus, they get much money, because if the first two players construct sets of 3 dice, they have to pay 6 Deniers per die they take from the other players.


But what forces the first two players to buy their dice from the last one or two players? First, it's possible that the first two players can use their own dice without buying any from anyone. Second, it's also possible that they simply buy any needed dice from each other. In either case, the later players get nothing to compensate them for their lousy turn order...

Quote:
As for the turn order: The game is designed, so that every player is starting player once ALL cards are revealed.


I question whether this adequately compensates the guys who go 3rd and 4th in the game's first round. See if I have this right:

By rotating the First Player Card clockwise around the table, the players go through each round with this turn order:

1st player: 123412
2nd player: 234123
3rd player: 341234
4th player: 412341

With that turn order from round to round, I think both players 3 and 4 are getting the short end of the stick. Player 3 only gets to go first once while going third twice AND last twice. Player 4 actually has a better deal than that; he goes last twice, but at least he gets to go first twice as well. Meanwhile, players 1 and 2 make out like bandits, each going last just once in the game. Player 1 goes first AND second twice!!

So what if you rotate the First Player Card in the opposite direction, that is, counterclockwise around the table? Player 1 in the opening round goes last in round 2, which I like, but the turn order still charts out this way over six rounds:

1st player: 143214
2nd player: 214321
3rd player: 321432
4th player: 432143

The third player's lot certainly improves, as he now goes second twice and last only once instead of the reverse. But now player 4 gets it in the neck, going 3rd and 4th twice each while only going 1st once and 2nd once.

Something tells me that simply rotating the First Player Card around the table doesn't work very well for this game no matter which direction you rotate it. In order for a simple card rotation to work, I think the players who get hurt by it should be compensated at the start of the game with something extra, whether it's money, influence, or even an extra meeple to place.

Another option is to integrate turn order manipulation into the game somehow so that players have some control over it. One idea: first player to pass gets to go first in the next round, second player to pass gets to go second, and so forth. That makes passing earlier an interesting and important tactic.

My group even thought of having one of the game's building cards function as some sort of turn order manipulator, but that doesn't work unless you guarantee that this card is used in every game.

How about using that Marauder "perma-event" card in some way? Since that card is always on the board, you wouldn't have to worry about its not coming up during a card draw, and letting that card somehow serve as a turn-order manipulation device would certainly make it an interesting tactical tool.

It's certainly not that Troyes needs even more "interesting tactical tools" than it already has, but I do think it might have a turn-order problem. I could be wrong, obviously. This sort of thing must have gotten discussed at great length during the game's play-testing phase. But after half a dozen plays, this topic has come up in every game, and not just because I keep bringing it up. This apparent turn order discrepancy is noticed in every game by whoever goes last in the first round. That person never feels like they've been fairly compensated for going last in the turn order...and then third...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We also wondered about a mechanic such as: A player who passes first with a die remaining in their own area becomes the next start player.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dick Hunt
United States
Orlando
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sebduj wrote:
Indeed, Every player is starter player once all cards are in game : this is the most important.


This must be the point I'm missing, because I don't see what's so key about this. If the cards coming into the game aren't of particular use to you, having first shot at using them is no big deal. It certainly doesn't compensate you for going last in round 1 and then third in round 2....

Quote:
For the first turns, the balance is there because the black dice are for the first player, because if he want your dice, he give you money and because there are good actions with small dice (with or without influence).


That's only true if he want your dice, and my group has never seen that happen:

If you're first player, you always make sure to place some of your pre-game meeples in the palace; that ensures that you have red dice to roll in the first round. And since red dice are doubled in value when fighting black dice, our first player has never needed to buy dice in order to fight off our first round black dice. First of all, he only needs to roll a 3 or higher on his red die in order to fight off a black 6. And even if he didn't get that roll, he could still fight off a black 6 with his yellow or white dice (albeit without doubling their values).

Finally, if all he rolls in the first round are 1's, and he's so desperate for "black die fighters," he STILL only has to pay two bucks for one red 3 from one other player.

And how many black dice are you guaranteed to get in the first round? Just one from the Marauder card, right? There's absolutely nothing to force, guarantee, or even mildly assure Player 3 or Player 4 that Player 1 will have to come to them, shelling out big money for their dice.

So the "balance" argument you're making for this game is the flimsiest of straw men.

I don't claim to know the fix, or even how large the balance problem is, but I do believe there is one.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DSHStratRat2 wrote:
Finally, if all he rolls in the first round are 1's, and he's so desperate for "black die fighters," he STILL only has to pay two bucks for one red 3 from one other player.

And how many black dice are you guaranteed to get in the first round? Just one from the Marauder card, right? There's absolutely nothing to force, guarantee, or even mildly assure Player 3 or Player 4 that Player 1 will have to come to them, shelling out big money for their dice.


That might be part of your problem right there, it's illegal to buy dice to fight black dice. You must use your own dice. Which often means wasting a bunch of dice you need, wasting pips due to rounding, etc.
4 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nah Steve, we play that right.

Dick just mispoke. If you cannot fight top black die with own dice there was a penalty (2 VPs IIRC) and we never have allowed someone to buy them elsewhere.

But the players going first and second typically had smaller top black dice to fight (fewer even cards out, so fewer black dice, so smaller average top roll).

As 4th player 2 of last 3 games, both times when I was start player I had 6's to fight. Meanwhile the 1st and 2nd start players had lower rolls to fight and even mopped up extra influence points I never had chance to (allowing them to get easier extra citizens to place).

But most importantly, they then get first crack at the best dice to buy early, which allows them to be using cool activity cards earlier.

I think it totally sucks going 4th.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MARIE denis
France
FRESNES - FRANCE
flag msg tools
In a 4 player game, a easy solution can be to play 8 turns. There is enough events cards for that and at least, everybody will play 1st player two times. I will try this solution next time...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you did that, the turn order should snake back (12344321).

In fact, even with 6 turns it should snake! (123443).

That might make turn order less of an issue, although by that point fighting the events may be more of a disadvantage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just by way of background to my comments, I've played the game only twice, a 3P and a 4P and have not gone first or last in either game.

This is a very interactive game with a high f*** you factor. The only time you can be reasonably sure you will have the dice you want to use in a round is if you are the start player that round. (You may lose some to the black dice, but you are still going to have the largest pool of dice to select from when the Action Phase begins.)

In my experience, you begin each round with several options for actions you would like to take. If you're the start player, you have the most options, and you have to decide which action to take, whether you benefit more from using these dice or from depriving Player X of those dice. By the time Player 4 gets an action, at least three of the dice he could have used are gone. He may or may not have dice left in his district; he may or may not be able to use the remaining dice effectively. Yes, he will be able to go first in the fourth round, but by then, many of the top activity card spots are taken; he might be late to the event cards; and he won't have had as many opportunities to get cubes into the cathedral or citizens into the principal buildings.

All that said, I'm not sure - yet - that it's a major disadvantage. I want to play again several more times to see how it shakes out. It may be that the late players have to start with a different strategy (e.g., load up as much as possible on citizens in the principal buildings to maximize their dice for later rounds).

I love the game, and would hate to see the late-player disadvantage turn out to be a major issue.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darryl with one "R"
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just for fun, I spent a couple of minutes in Excel simulating what would be the average 'high black die' that the start player would need to defeat, given that he/she is rolling x dice.

1 black die: 3.50
2 black dice: 4.47
3 black dice: 4.96
4 black dice: 5.24
5 black dice: 5.43
6 black dice: 5.56

The increase in difficulty decreases with each additional black die. In other words, 2 dice is substantially tougher to defeat that 1 die (given that with 2 dice you're going to have to beat a 4.5 on average vs. a 3.5 with 1 die), but there's little difference in difficulty between 5 and 6 dice.

I'd love to hear one of the designers address this issue & whether they think it's a disadvantage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
So don't let event cards with black dice accumulate if you know you are going to face them soon? Or be sure you have one or more red dice in your district, which will make counting that single die (even a 6) relatively easy?

There is a lot of speculation in this thread based on a relatively small sample size. Going first probably is better than going last, but in a game filled with options and uncertainties I'm not sure the difference is nearly as big as suggested.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One important thing to note, everyone has a chance to go first once after all cards have been revealed. Player 3 and 4 will also have first dibs on the later activity cards despite only going first once.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
One important thing to note, everyone has a chance to go first once after all cards have been revealed. Player 3 and 4 will also have first dibs on the later activity cards despite only going first once.


Player 3 gets first dibs on the Round 3 activity cards. Player 4 never gets first dibs on any activity cards.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Golux13 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
One important thing to note, everyone has a chance to go first once after all cards have been revealed. Player 3 and 4 will also have first dibs on the later activity cards despite only going first once.


Player 3 gets first dibs on the Round 3 activity cards. Player 4 never gets first dibs on any activity cards.


Well, Player 3 can will only use one of those activity cards initially. So player 4 will have a choice of the other two.

But more importantly, player 4 will get first choice of dice in round 4 and can use them on the level 3 activity card of his/her choice.


and a separate comment, given how tight money can feel on the first turn, going first isn't quite as strong on that turn, in my experience.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
One important thing to note, everyone has a chance to go first once after all cards have been revealed. Player 3 and 4 will also have first dibs on the later activity cards despite only going first once.


Player 3 gets first dibs on the Round 3 activity cards. Player 4 never gets first dibs on any activity cards.


Well, Player 3 can will only use one of those activity cards initially. So player 4 will have a choice of the other two.


Fair enough. And if nobody chooses a particular activity card, then Player 4 may get first dibs on an earlier one too... though there may be a reason nobody chose it.

Quote:
But more importantly, player 4 will get first choice of dice in round 4 and can use them on the level 3 activity card of his/her choice.


and a separate comment, given how tight money can feel on the first turn, going first isn't quite as strong on that turn, in my experience.


These are two of the reasons I am not yet sure that there's a significant late-player disadvantage. But going first in a round only once, in the middle of the game, when two of your opponents are going to go first twice, at the beginning and the end, certainly seems to carry a disadvantage.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have read that some people who own the game will not play with 4 players anymore, preferring 3 players.

I am not sure the sample size is all that small anymore.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is that due to the turn order "disadvantage"? or is it due to too much "chaos" between plays making it harder to plan?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Someone on Opinionated Boardgamers blog said it was because of turn-order effects.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have only played this once, but I wondered about this problem.

I have seen it in another game: Vikings. As in Troyes, being first on any given turn can be crucial. If there is only one particular color viking, or one particular type of tile on the market, being first is can be the difference between a win and loss. In four-player Vikings, the first two players get to be in first position twice. After playing that game quite a bit, I found it to be totally unfair and game breaking. I only play that game with three players now. I could see Troyes ending up the same way.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Having played Troyes a few more times, I can say that any late-turn disadvantage seems to be either not such a big deal or susceptible to mitigation. My last game I went last (of three players) and won the game. The balancing seemed to come from two places: (1) the black dice in the Events phase - admittedly a random effect that cannot be counted on, but one which has a greater likelihood of hitting the early players harder; and (2) a different approach that involved primarily accumulating dice while moving late - when other players are grabbing up activity cards, you can often pop a few guys into the buildings. Having more dice can make you (a) the recipient of your opponents' funds and (b) more able to set up to take advantage of that one turn when you do get to go first.

Still very impressed with the mechanisms of this game. The strategies are manifold and non-obvious, and require a great deal of flexibility and fallbacks - "If he takes those dice, I will have to do that instead of this," etc.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.