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Dominion: Alchemy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does anyone actually play with Golem? rss

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Paul
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After taking 19 actions with 18 money and 7 or 8 buys last night multiple times (actions costing 4 less), it seems that this card is inherently broken. It'll never be played here like Trade Route and Possession, but I was wondering if other people have also banned it.
 
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Drew Spencer
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It's disappointing when people discover something surprising about a card and respond by banning the card rather than learning how to deal with it.
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Paul
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Well my turns took probably 5 minutes apiece which detracts from the game and literally nothing can be done because this game doesn't have responses that do anything to non-attacks, so I'm not seeing how you can "deal with it." Taking two actions for free when I guarantee one of them will keep the action chain going can't be played around.
 
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Nate S
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Itsapaul wrote:
it seems that this card is inherently broken.

Nope.

Drew is right on; I've got nothing further to add.
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David Murray
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Itsapaul wrote:
After taking 19 actions with 18 money and 7 or 8 buys last night multiple times (actions costing 4 less), it seems that this card is inherently broken. It'll never be played here like Trade Route and Possession, but I was wondering if other people have also banned it.


If only they spotted that it was inherently broken during the extensive play testing, unfortunately we'll all have to play without the card now, what a shame.
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matt feldman
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i played it one time and it seemed underpowered so i burned it, buried the ashes and salted the earth.

to each his own, i guess.
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David desJardins
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Itsapaul wrote:
Taking two actions for free when I guarantee one of them will keep the action chain going can't be played around.


How do you "guarantee one of them will keep the action chain going"? You don't get any choice about the two actions you draw.
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Paul
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ghorsche wrote:
Itsapaul wrote:
it seems that this card is inherently broken.

Nope.

Drew is right on; I've got nothing further to add.


Yeah it is, to the point that the guy who bought Dominion, Prosperity, and Alchemy that day probably wanted to try and return it. How is 19 actions, 18 gold, 8 buys, and all actions costing 4-6 less balanced at all in this game?
 
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Paul
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Itsapaul wrote:
Taking two actions for free when I guarantee one of them will keep the action chain going can't be played around.


How do you "guarantee one of them will keep the action chain going"? You don't get any choice about the two actions you draw.


Yes, you really do. I had 2 Golems, maybe 2 Council Rooms, and the rest were Grand Markets and other + card + action cards (and treasure/victory cards obviously). You don't randomly get cards you don't choose in your deck.
 
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David desJardins
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Itsapaul wrote:
How is 19 actions, 18 gold, 8 buys, and all actions costing 4-6 less balanced at all in this game?


One way could be that your opponent(s) already have bought most of the Provinces before you build this hypothetical deck.
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Paul
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It wasn't hypothetical, and another player was doing the same thing on his turn. I was also buying two victory cards and picking up whatever stack of actions I wanted per turn, so I'm not seeing how any other build could possibly keep up.

EDIT - Not really here to argue since that game happened and is obviously overpowered, I was just asking who else didn't play with it since you can obviously favorably stack your deck to chain through every action if you don't draw all treasure/victory with a huge draw action or something.
 
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David desJardins
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Itsapaul wrote:
Yes, you really do. I had 2 Golems, maybe 2 Council Rooms, and the rest were Grand Markets and other + card + action cards (and treasure/victory cards obviously).


So how do you guarantee not drawing the 2 Council Rooms?

I personally think the Grand Market is a lot more overpowered than the Golem, and your deck (with just two Golems) might be an illustration of that. And obviously it has even more synergy with Quarry.
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Paul
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Because I'd discard 1 with Cellar (or just hold onto it having drawn a ton that turn already) every single time to make sure it wasn't in my deck to get with Golem in the first place. Quarry wasn't really necessary since I could've picked up the stack of Cellars and just got a smaller victory card that turn, but it didn't help the situation. Basically what I'm saying is Golem is inherently overpowered with any sort of +card/+action card since you choose whats in your deck and can stack those each turn, and having to build around it to make sure you never get a Market, Grand Market, the better Village in Prosperity for 4, or any other +card/+action card with a bonus seems much harder than just banning Golem.
 
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Michael Edwards
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One of the - err, perhaps touchy subjects - in this particular section of the board is folks thinking "X" card is clearly broken. Anytime someone comes in and makes an absolute statement to that effect, they'll generally get some pretty smart-alecky responses.

For pretty much any card, you can find it's champions and detractors. I tend to agree that all cards have a defense or response, and are viable. I think it can be argued that some are more well balanced or more or less effective than others (and least in more possible combination - there's almost always some combo that lets a card shine).

As you are a new user, try and realize they get this type of thing here a lot, and don't take it personally.

My take is that the problem is, with saying a card is broken, is that you are asserting that it won't work in any situation, with any players. Pretty much, any time that statement is made, it can be successfully refuted with counter examples.

What will work are statements like - "This card seems too powerful to me, how do you defend against it" or "This card seems to slow the game down". Even "I don't like this card, so we don't play with it is fine", as that's a personal choice, and you can ask if others think similarly, or if they have suggestions on how they deal with it.

But declaring it broken is pretty much stating that those that think otherwise are wrong, so prepare for these sorts of responses!
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David desJardins
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Itsapaul wrote:
Quarry wasn't really necessary since I could've picked up the stack of Cellars and just got a smaller victory card that turn


Usually Quarry is critical to building these large action-heavy decks because that's how you buy so many expensive actions. And it has great symmetry with Grand Market, because it lets you buy the Grand Markets and the Grand Markets generate buys that make the Quarry more valuable. I don't see how you build a deck full of Council Rooms and Grand Markets and Golems in a reasonable amount of time, without the Quarry.
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Paul
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I edited my above post with my response to why it should be banned rather than just saying its overpowered and showing a good situation I guess, but short of Trade Route, that's the silliest the game has gotten. Trade Route is another problem, but like this one, it's easily remedied by never playing that card.

No offense, but playing with house rules like "don't go nuts with X card even though it's completely possible" doesn't work well most of the time.
 
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Brent Mair
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Paul,

My group plays with a random setup every time. The only card we will sometimes replace is Black Market, because of the overhead and lengthening of the game. Not my preference, but I'm fine with that choice. Other than that we play with what is dealt.

Do we sometimes see amazing turns? Yes. It is excellent! Golem isn't the only way that you can play your entire deck with multiple buys. But normally it takes an efficient deck to continue to pull it off. If a turn like that had come up with an opponent in one of my games I would have analyzed his deck composition to determine what he did right. I would never declare anything broken, I'd never ban a card. I'd likely modify my attitudes about which cards to buy in the future.

I've played over 400 games of Dominion and continue to love every game. The possibilities are excellent!
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Brent Mair
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Chanfan wrote:
One of the - err, perhaps touchy subjects - ...


I already gave you a thumbs up. Wanted to give you a second one. One of the best posts I have read in a long time.
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matt feldman
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trade route? oh dear.
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Drew Spencer
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Playing without Colony/Platinum, a deck consisting of one Smithy and as much treasure as possible acquires 5 Provinces in 16 turns. How many turns did it take you to buy multiple Golems, 2 Council Rooms, lots of Grand Markets (each of which requires enough treasure to purchase without Coppers), one Cellar, and all the treasure you had?

Are you sure that strategy was the only viable one, or was it only the best one anyone at that table came up with?

EDIT: I realized the above may sound a bit demeaning. All I'm saying is that when you discover a "broken" strategy you should respond by playing with a set where that strategy is available as much as possible to find a better one. Banning it gets you nothing but a game with fewer available strategies.
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David desJardins
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Trade Route is one of the best cards in the game. Powerful but also self-limiting. I can't see how it can possibly lend itself to 5-minute turns, so when you say you have a big problem with that too, I tend to think you are just cranky and idiosyncratic.

In general, the complaint that some cards are too powerful in some situations is rather odd. The whole idea is that some cards should be powerful in some situations. More people used to complain that the kingdom cards were too weak, and they could win by just buying Silver. Then people discover that sometimes the kingdom cards are strong, so they complain about that. Moral: people complain.
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Carc >> BSG
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I played a setup that had Ambassador, Counting House, Golem and Transmutes. One opponent bought an Ambassador pretty quickly, so I responded with Counting House, then Golem. You're forcing me to take a Copper? Why, thank you very much. Pennies saved will provide Provinces.
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Tim Chen
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It's beyond my ability to see how Trade Route is more powerful/broken than Goons. Or does your play group all start from buying VPs?
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Nate S
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Itsapaul wrote:
EDIT - Not really here to argue

OK, you've made up your mind then. I suggest you quit playing this game if your first response to any card being used for an interesting combo is to ban the card, and I certainly suggest you quit posting on BGG if this is the attitude you're going to take about it.

Itsapaul wrote:
that game happened and is obviously overpowered

Nope.

If your opponents dick around instead of buying VPs and ending the game before you can finish your ubercombo deck, it's their own fault for giving you so much time. There's no inherent moral law that no deck should ever be able to score lots of VPs in one turn given unlimited time to build up to some big combo.
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Edward
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Add my name to the list curious to see how Trade Route is overpowered.

Are you sure that you're playing it correctly? Trade Route should only be worth $3 max in non-Colony, non-Kingdom-Victory setups.
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