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Subject: Scott Adams has issues with the treatment of women? rss

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Sean Franco
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Scott Adams wrote:
Now I would like to speak directly to my male readers who feel unjustly treated by the widespread suppression of men’s rights:

Get over it, you bunch of pussies.

The reality is that women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone. You don’t argue with a four-year old about why he shouldn’t eat candy for dinner. You don’t punch a mentally handicapped guy even if he punches you first. And you don’t argue when a women tells you she’s only making 80 cents to your dollar. It’s the path of least resistance. You save your energy for more important battles.

How many times do we men suppress our natural instincts for sex and aggression just to get something better in the long run? It’s called a strategy. Sometimes you sacrifice a pawn to nail the queen. If you’re still crying about your pawn when you’re having your way with the queen, there’s something wrong with you and it isn’t men’s rights.

...

I realize I might take some heat for lumping women, children and the mentally handicapped in the same group. So I want to be perfectly clear. I’m not saying women are similar to either group. I’m saying that a man’s best strategy for dealing with each group is disturbingly similar.


Source: http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/dilbert-carto...


Honestly, I never expected this from someone who draws one of my Sunday funnies. I can't imagine Charles Schulz ever going off like this. That aside, how does someobe expect to get away with a comparision like this nowadays? You can't just group folks together like this...


Edit: Spelling
Edit 2: Clarity
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
I think this is an amazingly ham fisted attmpet to ask male readers to stop whineing about womwns rights. Couched in a "they need all the help they can get poor dears" laqnguage. Not sure whats the more insulting his (apparetn) view of women or his view of men.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Oh, good Lord Almighty.....another one goes off the deep end.
 
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
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I think one thing we can all agree on is Adams never should have written the post in the first place. On that, I think even he would agree.


I don't agree. I think these issues all have merit to show something about today's human condition. It's just the continued wussification of today's society. And while I think every one has the right to live life the way they seem fit, low marriage rates, low birth rate and high divorce rates have evolved the landscape in ways we aren't sure is for the better in the long run. I'm sure the most replies will disagree, but what's in the mind of men and what they will admit to are two different things. It's strategic indeed.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
In 50 years we'll all be chicks.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
The irony is that assuming Scott is right he's made a pretty basic strategic blunder (unless his goal is to piss women off).

Chapel's right in that men (and women) obfuscate what they want for strategic reasons. Some of it is conscious, some not, but it's how men and women compromise. What I find annoying about Adams's diatribe is that he sees it as entirely one-sided -- like the rational men have to be sneaky with irrational women.

The reality is that this is just part of human interaction. Most employees aren't completely frank with their bosses or their subordinates. When a person gets pulled over by a cop they probably don't give a candid expression of how they feel about it. One of the best things about being married or forming close friendships is arguably that you can show more of what's behind the curtain but no one does it completely.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
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I can't imagine Charles Schultz (sic) ever going off like this.


Instead he just created Lucy van Pelt who once said, "I never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong."
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
joebelanger wrote:
In 50 years we'll all be chicks.


Ecxept femaniists they will become male chevanists.
 
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
sikeospi wrote:
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I can't imagine Charles Schultz (sic) ever going off like this.


Instead he just created Lucy van Pelt who once said, "I never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong."

Touche. (And thanks for the spelling catch.)
 
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Alaren wrote:
I agree with Chad that "assuming Scott is right he's made a pretty basic strategic blunder." But I think that may be worth further discussion:

logopolys wrote:
You can't just group folks together like this...


I suspect what Scott was trying (inartfully) to bring out is that you absolutely can "group folks together like this" so long as the folks you're grouping together don't enjoy superminority status in your culture. Depending on who you are and how dogmatic your audience is with regard to the politics of privilege, this means that a straight white protestant male is usually going to be held to a different standard with regard to "grouping folks together" than is a gay black Jewish female.


That wasn't at all what I got from his post.

What I got was that he thinks that women, like 4 year olds and mentally retarded people, are an audience such that people addressing them (which is presumably not-female, over-4 and mentally-capable, generally speaking) are foolish to engage with them as respects their desires, impulsive actions and demands.

He made a point that women are not, in fact, 4 year olds or mental incompetents, but he stressed (as I recall) that the best plan for dealing with each of these three categories is strikingly similar.

That's not about subtle points of privilege theory -- and I think there are many, and that reasonable people can differ about the right answers. That's about blowing people off because their concerns aren't really worth the bother.

If the problem is developing (or emphasizing or -- forgive me -- reifying) an "us vs. them" mentality, then the opinions in his post were clearly part of the problem. One of my biggest mouth-agape moments happened when I read his view that men are team-oriented, and, well, given that if he's ever in a burning car it'll be a man that gets him out, he's sure happy to be part of that team.

I'm a woman and a feminist, and I don't see gender like that, for sure. I have a father. I have a brother. I have a son. I have many men whom I love and consider to be on "my team". Frankly, it's precisely that attitude -- the "bros before hos" kind of thing -- that I find especially chilling, partly because it's so foreign to me.

At any rate, I think your point is an interesting and reasonable one, though I don't entirely agree with it. I do not -- at all -- think that this is the point that Scott Adams was making.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
joebelanger wrote:
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.

Gender differences matter when there's a physical reason for them and to some extent there are culturally induced differences as well. Yet the latter are by no means fundamental.
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Kenneth has brought up some interesting points. He is right about this:

Quote:
I think it's a little unfair to Adams because the issue is not rational men versus irrational women--it is women who need not tread eggshells when discussing gender issues, versus men who do not enjoy that privilege.


However, I have some questions about things that I find vague and perplexing, because they seem built upon assumptions.

Quote:
Depending on who you are and how dogmatic your audience is with regard to the politics of privilege, this means that a straight white protestant male is usually going to be held to a different standard with regard to "grouping folks together" than is a gay black Jewish female.


So how exactly then, are straight white protestant males held to a different standard?

Quote:
Some folks have rejected the idea that you can't solve the problem without talking about it (as Morgan Freeman famously said to Mike Wallace, "stop talking about it"). Others decide that talking about it may make it worse, but surely it's the kind of worse that presages an improvement. But so far, privilege politics does not appear to have accomplished much in the way of measurable good in the world.


So when does privilege theory begin? Might I in 1905, be able to accuse Booker T. Washington, of using privilege politics? In other words, define what you mean by privilege politics, because it can be a malleable thing. Remember, Segregation was considered "progressive" in 1900 because it would ostensibly protect blacks from lynch mobs.

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We're all aware of the professional figures who have been forced to resign after making observations relating to purported intellectual differences between men and women, for example; with relatively little resort to objectivity or empiricism, these figures find themselves burned at the proverbial stake for blaspheming against leftist dogma.


Who would these people be? I cannot think of any off the top of my head. Also, clarify what you mean by 'Leftist Dogma' because as a leftist, I don't really know which 'dogma' you are attacking.
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
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Instead he just created Lucy van Pelt who once said, "I never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong."


What about Sally, Marcie, and Peppermint Patty?
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
I never understood the argument that because men have wieners, somehow we're 'smarter' or more 'emotionally mature' than men.

When I delivered pizza to frat boys while in grad school, I gathered conclusive evidence that the absolute opposite is true. Especially when booze is involved.

Seriously though-
There are a lot more rational ways of looking at questions, but looking at everything through the veil of sex (or race, for that matter) only demonstrates how absolutely OBSESSED Americans are about the subject- even when we're soo anxious to prove how "Oh, there's no problem with sexism (or racism) in America today!! In fact, its so perfect today that its Men (or Whites) who are being discriminated against!! Yah! REALLY!"

(If there is no problem with sexism or racism, then wouldn't that mean there is no discrimination going on?? Heyyyyy??!!!)

I better shut up now before I'm accused of sucking up to Chad and/or Corross by MisterMarino.....

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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
joebelanger wrote:
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.


As the father of two young girls, I don't get out that often...but my wife and I did get an evening out recently (courtesy of my Mom). We saw Limitless, which meant that the trailers consisted almost entirely of movies that mixed absurd plots with insane action and a healthy supply of hot women. All but one caused me to lean over to Trish and say, "Yeah, I might have to see that one."

I don't think our gender should throw too many stones that the glass house of "wow, women go for crappy entertainment"!
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Chad_Ellis wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.


As the father of two young girls, I don't get out that often...but my wife and I did get an evening out recently (courtesy of my Mom). We saw Limitless, which meant that the trailers consisted almost entirely of movies that mixed absurd plots with insane action and a healthy supply of hot women. All but one caused me to lean over to Trish and say, "Yeah, I might have to see that one."

I don't think our gender should throw too many stones that the glass house of "wow, women go for crappy entertainment"!


Word of advice from last night-

Pass on "Suckerpunch", unless you want ABSOLUTE PROOF that having hot young girls in schoolgirl outfits using guns does not mean that a movie will have any merit whatsoever.

I'm still trying to figure out the hell was going in that flick....

Darilian
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Darilian wrote:
I better shut up now before I'm accused of sucking up to Chad and/or Corross by MisterMarino.....


I heartily approve of sucking up to corross. That Chad fellow seems a bit shady, though.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Darilian wrote:
blah blah....hot young girls in schoolgirl outfits using guns....blah blah


I'm sorry, what was your point?
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
mistermarino wrote:
Darilian wrote:
I better shut up now before I'm accused of sucking up to Chad and/or Corross by MisterMarino.....


I heartily approve of sucking up to corross. That Chad fellow seems a bit shady, though.


Yeah, but he's a good tipper.



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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Chad_Ellis wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.


I don't think our gender should throw too many stones that the glass house of "wow, women go for crappy entertainment"!


Men and women are totally the same, man.
 
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
whac3 wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
I'm going to go out on a huge limb here. The reason that women should be treated different from men is that they are, in fact, different from men.

If a gender is going to lose their shit over a sparkly vampire written as a cross between Jesus and a staple remover, then yes a different type of handling gloves will be worn.

Gender differences matter when there's a physical reason for them and to some extent there are culturally induced differences as well. Yet the latter are by no means fundamental.


I have no idea what you just said. I need an underpaid woman to translate for me.
 
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
I think a bunch of geeks are overanalyzing what Adams is saying. He's making a sweeping generalization and if you aren't offended, it's kind of funny in a Dilbertesque way. I think that he could have included that you shouldn't argue with a baseball fan (usually male) about whether the game is boring and no one would have cared because making fun of men as a group is still mostly acceptable.

You know baseball is boring (as you may suspect that women really aren't getting only 80 cents to a man's dollar for the same position in most cases), but in neither case (baseball or women being underpaid) will argument sway the other person's position. And in the case of arguing with a women, it may get in the way of a potential future more interesting relationship.
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
Quote:
I didn't mean anything particularly complex by this. There was a fairly contentious conversation here in RSP not too long ago about who was "allowed" to speak certain racial epithets, for example. And I have personally been told in no uncertain terms that as a man, my only appropriate role in conversations about gender issues was to "shut up and listen." I have also been told by one homosexual friend that "queer is our word, you can't say it without being offensive." Obviously, even people within these various groups have differing opinions regarding generalization and treatment by "outsiders." You may or may not feel that it is appropriate to hold people to different standards regarding what they can and can't say. That's not really what I'm arguing about here (and would like to avoid the argument if I possibly can)--the simple existence of varied standards is sufficient, I think, to my point.


I've actually never been told either thing, although I do not know many homosexuals, and that is in part a personal choice. That is not for lack of stating opinions bluntly either. I do not wish then to get into an argument like the one you referenced, but I feel the need to offer a different perspective. My point then is that you might be making this more pervasive than it really is.

Quote:
I don't know... maybe? I don't actually know when privilege theory was first recognized and pursued. I do know that W. E. B. Du Bois discussed the psychological wages of whiteness in 1935, and that critical race theory as an academic movement is generally traced to the 1980s, but draws on work dating a few decades prior. What I'm trying to communicate, I guess, is that I'm using "privilege politics" in a fairly technical sense; it could arguably be applied to other instances through history, but I think that particular discussion well exceeds the scope of this thread.


I do not think it is beyond the scope if you are using it. It needs to be clarified. You are right that contemporary academic theories of race, class, and gender came to fruition in the 1980s (as I like to say while the left was pontificating the right was actually doing things). These theories, at least in my history department, still dominate. My point would be, what makes this privilege politics/theory different then say the equal rights movements of the past?

Quote:
I was primarily thinking of Lawrence Summers, whose high-profile resignation as president of Harvard seems to have been precipitated by his assertion that because the "intelligence curve" for men is flatter than it is for women (that is, there are more men at the high and low extremes than women, who cluster more toward the center), perhaps the disproportionate number of men in the highest ranks of science was inevitable. There was also an economist whose name I can't remember at the moment... the situation was eerily similar, though.


Someone who has the kind of juice that Summers has does not resign over such statements. That smells like a cover, but of course I have no proof. That being said, even if it was a cover it was an effective cover, and lends credence to your point. I do think there is a fringe left that would use such a thing aganist someone. It doesn't help that the academies of America are filled with leftovers of the New Left.

Quote:
Of course, Summers' position is hardly unassailable. But recently, Dr. Johnathan Haidt made waves by suggesting that the field of sociology (at least) has become a [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=1]"'tribal-moral community' united by 'sacred values' that hinder research and damage their credibility." I can't find it right now, but I read an article where Haidt brought up Summers' situation, noting that Summers was punished not because his position was scientifically invalid (though it may very well have been that; very few people criticized him on the merits), but because he had blasphemed against a sacred community value.


That is a superb article, I find the same sort of culture in my work and among my fellow students. Indeed, my unabashed love of military history, and my preference for books on dead white males, puts me in the outside of the "race, class, gender" club. Of course I am as left as the rest of them, I'm just a leftist who does not like the New Left. A similar attitude can be found in economic departments across America, except there they never question"free trade" and are mostly made up of conservatives and disciples of the Austrian school.

Quote:
That said, it's not my intention to be attacking any dogma at all, so that may be why you are confused. I'm just working to interpret Adams' words as generously as possible... but it's possible that in doing so I'm walking right into the mess Adams intended to steer us away from. That's one of the reasons I found his quoted words so interesting; as Chad pointed out initially, the quote appears self-contradictory; it looks a lot like someone giving the advice that one should never give advice.


Thank you for answering. Just to be clear, there was no intent on my part to bicker or accuse, only for clarification of your points. However, I was not confused, because several of your phrases and words indicate a distaste for privilege theory and politics. Your reply to the thread is a well reasoned critique of privilege theory/politics as ineffective, limiting, and dogmatic. I happen to agree with such a sentiment, and I rarely think about or in terms of privilege theory/politics. It might simply be that my critique would be rather different since it comes from the left, and would include how the Right enjoys using privilege politics and class warfare arguments for their own ends.
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Re: Scott Adams hates women?
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I think a bunch of geeks are overanalyzing what Adams is saying. He's making a sweeping generalization and if you aren't offended, it's kind of funny in a Dilbertesque way. I think that he could have included that you shouldn't argue with a baseball fan (usually male) about whether the game is boring and no one would have cared because making fun of men as a group is still mostly acceptable.

You know baseball is boring (as you may suspect that women really aren't getting only 80 cents to a man's dollar for the same position in most cases), but in neither case (baseball or women being underpaid) will argument sway the other person's position. And in the case of arguing with a women, it may get in the way of a potential future more interesting relationship.


I'm not offended, baseball is dull, and I do argue with women.
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