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1830: The Coalfields» Forums » Rules

Subject: Buying Obsolete Trains Across Companies rss

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Scott Petersen
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Can obsolete trains be purchased between companies? Thus if a 2-train never runs, it could be purchased back and forth throughout the entire game (if there is room within the train limit)?
 
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Scott Petersen
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Also, what happens to obsolete trains in the Pool? If an obsolete 4-train is in the Pool, is a company required to buy it in a forced train purchase if they cannot afford a Bank train?
 
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Morgan Dontanville
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As soon as all four trains are purchased Phase Four begins and all 2-trains are removed from play.
 
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Scott Petersen
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Thanks Morgan. Is this from the rules originally in The General?

Can I assume that the other trains "hard rust" similarly? (last 6-train rusts the 3-trains, last D rusts the 4-trains?).

I take it from your (non)response that trains obsolete trains MAY be purchased between companies? If so, this is the only game I can think of that works this way.

I also assume that obsolete trains that are in the Pool rust, but this is not specified in the rulesheet in the files section.
 
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scottredracecar wrote:
Thanks Morgan. Is this from the rules originally in The General?
Oops, no. I'm sorry, I forgot, The Coalfields has delayed obsolescence.

The example in 22.0 is:
Corporation B,which owns a 2 train, does not have to remove it until after his next Operating Round turn. Corporation A also has one more opportunity to run with any 2 trains in its possession as well.

So because it hasn't rusted until it takes its last run, I can only assume that it can be purchased and will linger until it runs one final time. If you owned three companies you might get away with juggling it the entire game (although that would be silly).

The rules in The General are specifically in addendum form. One can assume that unless the rules have been changed regarding the trains in the bank pool, then the standard 1830 book takes precedence. I'd say that trains in the bank pool are subject to a hard rust.
 
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Most games with obsolescence prohibit purchases of obsolete trains.
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Morganza wrote:
Most games with obsolescence prohibit purchases of obsolete trains.
In the Coalfields rules there is a specific addendum to purchasing trains that says nothing about the delayed obsolescence. One would assume that you would treat trains as normal toward purchases until they have their last run.
 
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Coalfields is hardly the best documented variant in any regard. Multiple rules ambiguities have been observed since its release, not least surrounding the trains and larger shares. As there has been no formal adjudication in that period, I suggest that there is no formal answer. I suggest you just pick something reasonable, make sure everybody knows what it is, and then stick with it.
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clearclaw wrote:
...not least surrounding the trains and larger shares.
What is the confusion over trains? I assume the share reference is to the Reading triple share and perhaps not strictly applicable to the base Coalfields map--unless you mean something else.
 
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scottredracecar wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
...not least surrounding the trains and larger shares.
What is the confusion over trains?
May obsolete trains be bought across? Do they count against train limit? If falling train limit puts an obsolete train in the bank, does it sit there or auto-rust? If a train already in the bank becomes obsolete, does it rust or sit there?

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I assume the share reference is to the Reading triple share and perhaps not strictly applicable to the base Coalfields map--unless you mean something else.
And the second 20% share for the N&W. When may it be bought? Does selling the 20% non-presidential share hit the stock for two rows? How are presidential transfers handled in relation to it? Given that the Open Market limit in 1830 is 5 certificates (not 50%), does that mean that 60% of the N&W may be in the Open Market? There are a great many questions along those lines.
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Scott Petersen
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Thanks--that's very helpful.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
And the second 20% share for the N&W. When may it be bought? Does selling the 20% non-presidential share hit the stock for two rows? How are presidential transfers handled in relation to it? Given that the Open Market limit in 1830 is 5 certificates (not 50%), does that mean that 60% of the N&W may be in the Open Market? There are a great many questions along those lines.
The file that Ed Holzman produced (available here and on your blog) note in the rules that the N&W has a normal share distribution 80%x1/10%x8. However, the graphics add an *extra* 20% share on top of the normal distribution. I suspect it is an error.

I don't really know what the effect of a second 20% share would be. It certainly would make the N&W more volatile if someone besides the president gets the share. I would probably make it the last share in the IPO stack as in 1849. N&W, seems to be decent, but is also down in the corner. Central location along the seaboard appears to be important in the early game. Thoughts?
 
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scottredracecar wrote:
The file that Ed Holzman produced (available here and on your blog) note in the rules that the N&W has a normal share distribution 80%x1/10%x8. However, the graphics add an *extra* 20% share on top of the normal distribution. I suspect it is an error.
It is not an error. It is used when playing Coalfields with the Reading.

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I don't really know what the effect of a second 20% share would be. It certainly would make the N&W more volatile if someone besides the president gets the share.
Quite.

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I would probably make it the last share in the IPO stack as in 1849.
The rules say nothing such.

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N&W, seems to be decent, but is also down in the corner. Central location along the seaboard appears to be important in the early game. Thoughts?
Like the C&O beside it, the N&W is a great early and highly profitable company, running multiple short trains better than any other. It is frequently opened in SR1.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
Quote:
I would probably make it the last share in the IPO stack as in 1849.
The rules say nothing such.
Okay, if the 20% certificate is supposed to be part of the game, players could have the choice of shares if both types are available. As for the stock hit when the 20% is sold, I think it would be appropriate to have it just fall one row as is done when the President's Certificate is sold.

If the pool limit is not further spelled out, I would play with the rules as written and allow 60%.

I realize that I have been referencing this variant wrong--not sure where I got the idea that this came from The General. Apparently it is from some hard to find sources: Games International #6 in June 1989 and the Train Gamers Gazette, Volume 2 Number 2 from June 1995.
 
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scottredracecar wrote:
Okay, if the 20% certificate is supposed to be part of the game, players could have the choice of shares if both types are available.
Agreed.

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As for the stock hit when the 20% is sold, I think it would be appropriate to have it just fall one row as is done when the President's Certificate is sold.
What gave you that idea? It is one row per 10%.

Quote:
If the pool limit is not further spelled out, I would play with the rules as written and allow 60%.
5 certificates, yes.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
Quote:
As for the stock hit when the 20% is sold, I think it would be appropriate to have it just fall one row as is done when the President's Certificate is sold.
What gave you that idea? It is one row per 10%.
Yes, scratch that. Of course it is. I see no reason to change from dropping one row per 10%.
 
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It was a delight to see the N&W par in a 6 player game and come back to the wanna-be president already 8 rows lower.
 
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What is is about 18xx players that seems to drive them to find loopholes in the rules and then to create loopholes where none readily exist?

Yes, Mr. Moon's rules regarding obsolescent trains are a bit vague. When I was creating the Coalfields document that I uploaded here, I had to make several "interpretations" based upon vagueness in the RAW. However, I think we can easily determine "designer's intent" when it comes to the arena of obsolescent trains. I firmly believe that it was Mr. Moon's intent that obsolescent trains would continue to be viable for exactly one operating round after they would normally be rendered obsolete (in order to allow a company to get one last use out of that train). Given Mr. Moon's design philosophy (as witnessed in other titles he has developed), can anyone come up with a well-reasoned argument for his intention that the trains would continue to exist in perpetuity until they actually conducted another run?

It would be nice if Mr. Moon could voice his intent himself, but in the absence of such input I would volunteer that if a company has an obsolescent train, then that train is not a commodity that can be sold and will disappear from the game at the conclusion of the "run trains" step of that company's next operating round.
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Bearcat89 wrote:
It would be nice if Mr. Moon could voice his intent himself, but in the absence of such input I would volunteer that if a company has an obsolescent train, then that train is not a commodity that can be sold and will disappear from the game at the conclusion of the "run trains" step of that company's next operating round.
Ed, I agree with your ruling, but I've only played once as a bug test for the Rails implementation. At that time, the rules were not implemented as you wrote, but my understanding is that they are now supposed to be.

The biggest play difference in Coalfields that I found was that since obsolete trains still count against the train limit, the train rush around the 3- and 4-trains slows down as companies wait for their newly obsoleted trains to rust.

The new version of Rails (to be released in the next couple weeks) will have Coalfields/Reading/Coalfields&Reading variants. I'm hoping the Rails implementation introduces the variants to more players and some more discussion of the implications of the rulings can be further discussed.
 
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Ed, the key is that it isn't so easy for everyone else to interpret Alan Moon's intent as it seems to be for you. Scott is trying to determine the best way to implement the variant in Rails, which means the interpretations need to be clarified so they can be set down as hard and fast rules enforced by the program. As Scott notes, someone interpreted it differently than you did, so there is (perhaps inadvertent) disagreement that needs clarification.
 
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TheCat wrote:
Ed, the key is that it isn't so easy for everyone else to interpret Alan Moon's intent as it seems to be for you. Scott is trying to determine the best way to implement the variant in Rails, which means the interpretations need to be clarified so they can be set down as hard and fast rules enforced by the program. As Scott notes, someone interpreted it differently than you did, so there is (perhaps inadvertent) disagreement that needs clarification.
I agree that a simple decision from Alan R. Moon would go a long way toward clarifying the issue.

However, I do think that the whole "purchasing of obsolescent trains from companies" issue goes way beyond normal shenanigans and ventures into munchkin territory (IMNSHO). It's right up there with deliberately not declaring your destination run in 1870 so that you can buy another train before "discovering" it.
 
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Morganza wrote:
Most games with obsolescence prohibit purchases of obsolete trains.
Every 18xx game that I've played with delayed obsolescence prohibits purchase of such trains, regardless of whether they've ever been used. Thus (using 1830 trains in this example) once the first 6-train has been purchased:
--- any 3-trains in the Bank Pool rust immediately
--- 3-trains owned by companies rust immediately after the company has operated, and before its opportunity to buy trains
--- companies cannot purchase 3-trains

Note that some of the 3-trains may not get a last chance to run if the rules specify that they rust immediately upon purchase of the first Diesel.

I've never played the Coalfields variant, so I don't know what the intent of the designer was. (Hopefully it'll be in the re-released game that should be available at Origins.)
 
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scottredracecar wrote:
Thanks--that's very helpful.
I know what you meant, cool but it struck me as funny that he was helpful because he put more confusion into the situation.
 
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TheCat wrote:
Ed, the key is that it isn't so easy for everyone else to interpret Alan Moon's intent as it seems to be for you. Scott is trying to determine the best way to implement the variant in Rails, which means the interpretations need to be clarified so they can be set down as hard and fast rules enforced by the program. As Scott notes, someone interpreted it differently than you did, so there is (perhaps inadvertent) disagreement that needs clarification.
Chris or Scott, if you are still on here after four years, or whoever might be able to answer......As Rails is currently working, it only has 10% shares for N&W. Am I missing a place to change it to an extra 20%, or was the decision not to go down that track?

Thanks for any help on this. :-)
 
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Just file a bug against Rails. They'll get it fixed at some point.
 
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