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Subject: Learning & Mastering the La Bataille System rss

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Joe Forjan
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Hello all, hope this is the place to ask the questions.

I'm new to the la bataille system and have picked up a few games with the intention of eventually being able to 'master' it. I play solo and have in the past played some miniatures. To date, I have the following:

La Bataille :
de Orthez
Quatre Bras
de Preussisch - Eylau
Corunna - Espagnol
Lutzen
D'Albuera - Espagnol

and planning to pick a few more. I purchased a copy of the XXII regs, and I have downloaded the XXX pdf.

What I would like to know from any la bat experienced players out there, which of these is the easiest to learn the system with or is there another game that would be better to start with. I was told a while back that Orthez would be a good bet, but I acquired the 2 Espagnol games in the meantime and was wondering if that changes anything. How did you get into and learn the system. Also, does the version of rules have any bearing on learning the system.

Any help would be appreciated. Since I have become newly disabled, I'm going to have a lot of time on my hands. Already eyeing the scotch and cigars. I figured a good game would cover my excuse.
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I would definately start with the Regs XXX and pick a game where the exclusive rules are ready for download.

I've only played Quatres Bras 2, but it was much easier learning the system with Regs XXX compared to Regs XXII.
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Padraic Kirby
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The new LBD Moskowa from Clash of Arms will have the new 'Marie Louise' entry level rules. You could pre-order that and start there.

Pat
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Joe Forjan
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pete_g wrote:
I would definately start with the Regs XXX and pick a game where the exclusive rules are ready for download.

I've only played Quatres Bras 2, but it was much easier learning the system with Regs XXX compared to Regs XXII.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll start with the XXX version and retire the other. I guess that XXII I bought is already 'obsolete'.
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Joe Forjan
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agrippa wrote:
The new LBD Moskowa from Clash of Arms will have the new 'Marie Louise' entry level rules. You could pre-order that and start there.

Pat
When you say the 'Marie Louise' rules are entry level, do you know what's the difference between using them as opposed to the XXX version that Pete suggested?
As far as pre-ordering, I would love to if they wait with printing for another 2 weeks. I've been tempted to buy the older version, but I figured if I was going to put down 50+, I might as well get the new one.
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The ML rules are quite adequate - the full blown ones are a bit over the top in chrome and excruciating detail and mechanics.


BTW, If one were to order one LaBat game, what is the best choice?
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Aaron Silverman
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Is there a draft of the Marie-Louise rules available online?
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Joe Forjan
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Wilhammer wrote:
The ML rules are quite adequate - the full blown ones are a bit over the top in chrome and excruciating detail and mechanics.


BTW, If one were to order one LaBat game, what is the best choice?
I wonder how much the chrome and detail hinders gameplay. Or is it more getting to learn all the chrome and applying it to the games.

When I first started getting into la bat way back, someone suggested Orthez as a starting point. At that time I had Quatre Bras. What I remember from what he said, is that Orthez had very little cavalry and that dealing with mainly infantry was a way to start. I couldn't act on his suggestions at the time, but now I intend to start which is why I posted this forum.
I'm pretty sure that there are others out there that have a similar interest with this extraordinary detailed system and no clue like myself on how to start.
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Hi Joe,

My personal feeling goes to XXII, it's a heavy system to put in action and to play, but gives a good napoleonic era impact, it's not perfect, not even with the XXX one, but it's playable and that is enough.

In 20 years of playing with LaBataille's wargames, now I'm just a little tired of the "system", because playing with a very good player also the difficult scenario/battle tend to be static, in a "WWI" sense.

To start with, I'll suggest Quatre Bras or Lutzen: there are a lot of all: infantry, artillery and cavalry to play with and to exercise/experiment and they are not so big to ask too much place or time to play them.

I don't know ML rules, but generally I don't like simplified rules and with a napoleonic wargame, still less!!

The last, and not the least, I reccomend You another very important thing: don't buy too much games of the serie (if not for collection) if You are not sure to have one or more players (grognard) to play with or the games will collect dust and dust ... my personal experience.

Good wargaming,

F.
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Joe Forjan
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Filippo

Thanks for the input and I appreciate your view. This system seems to be geared to different levels of realism and the complexities that go along with it depending on the rules version. I guess its a matter of what level I'm going to comfortable with although I do agree with you about simplified rules for Napoleonic warfare. I think its the allure of combined arms tactics and movement that I like about this system. I may have to start simple and move up.

When you started playing, did you start solo or had someone teach you and what game did you go with?

As far as grognards go, I don't see any in my immediate future and solo play is the only thing on the menu at the moment. Although moving from the east coast to the midwest may help.

I thank you for the advice about purchasing the games. I picked them up (cheap) for playing and collection, but before I punch any of these games I'm doing the research as to which is the better one to start with. I already have 160+ games that I'm starting to sell off.
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Joe,

My first approach to La Bataille was: La Bataille de Ligny.

At that time, I had only one friend/wargamer and we started to study the rules alone, having both never played a napoleonic wargame.
We played, at first, the small scenarios, then we added Quatre Bras, then Waterloo and Wavre playing the entire campaing when all the games were available.

A great help was also the deep knowledge of the Battles from the Age of Reason (BAR) serie, different of course, but conceptually very close to the napoleonic.

Bye and You have all my comprehension, I know what it means to wait /desire the presence of players keen and enthusiastic!

F.
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Definitely start with Quatre Bras. Everything is there is easy to handle amounts, by La Bat standards.
I can't help select a rules set, I learned on the original, de la Moscowa, so any of the more recent versions seem pretty easy to me.whistle
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Joe Forjan
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Filippo, Sim, and all

I see that players with your experience seem to like the rules with more realism. Maybe the 'watering' down of the rules sets is to get more players interested in the series and streamline play to shorten the time required.

I can't imagine playing the campaign game using Ligny, Quatre Bras, Waterloo and Wavre games. Just the space and time required is scary. And I do own some of the BAR series games: Leuthen, Kolin and Zorndorf. None have been played yet.

At least this gives me a direction for starting. I'll probably start with Quatre Bras, read the rule sets that I have, scotch and cigar in hand (away from the map) and have at it. But I will give each set of rules its due.

Also, I thank all of you who participated and those who may still participate in this discussion. Its good to know if someone needs a little help, they can post and get it. I'll try to update this forum with any progress. Maybe someone down the road will be in the same situation as me and can get something out of your posts like I did.
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Joe Forjan
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It looks like a plan for Quatre Bras II, Orthez, Lutzen for the games in pretty much that order. The rules I will take easy to complex as I get more experienced with the system. And I'm going to try to get the new Moscowa game as well.

Thanks All !! A toast to each of you! And a second ..... and another .... devil
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Gotthard Heinrici (prev. Graf Strachwitz)
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DJ Kuul A wrote:
Is there a draft of the Marie-Louise rules available online?
Aaron,
In case you have not been able to trace them, I must have the ML rules somewhere on my desktop at work. I will trace them and If you send me your EMail I can send them you.
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Andy Daglish
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pete_g wrote:
I've only played Quatres Bras 2, but it was much easier learning the system with Regs XXX compared to Regs XXII.
previously there was nothing to learn because there wasn't a meaningful rulebook, so has the situation changed?
 
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Harae wrote:
DJ Kuul A wrote:
Is there a draft of the Marie-Louise rules available online?
Aaron,
In case you have not been able to trace them, I must have the ML rules somewhere on my desktop at work. I will trace them and If you send me your EMail I can send them you.


They are now posted on the labattaile website.

Règlements des Marie-Louise
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Tom Blake
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What would be a reasonable time estimate for two newcomers (but experienced wargamers) to the La Bat system to play Quatre Bras using the new ML rules? I notice the shortest scenario in Quatre Bras is 22 turns long which would seem to indicate a very long game requiring multiple sessions to complete, especially for newbies. Do other titles in the system (that have updated game-specific rules suitable for play with ML) have shorter scenarios that are more appropriate for learning the system?

Thanks,

Tom
 
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Joe Forjan
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Just as an update,

I just received my pre-order copy of La Bataille de la Moscowa. The box is HEAVY. It'll get opened when I learn and play Quatre Bras, using the XXII rules suggested by Fillipo. I also have a thing for the complexity and realism in Napoleonic warfare since playing miniatures a looong while back. I'm a sucker for it. Got the map up and clipping the counters. Setup by the end of the w/e, play by Monday. Restarts due to ineptitude from Monday on.shake

I'll just have to get longer cigars and another bottle of Tullamore Dew.devil
 
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Joe Forjan
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blaketag wrote:
What would be a reasonable time estimate for two newcomers (but experienced wargamers) to the La Bat system to play Quatre Bras using the new ML rules? I notice the shortest scenario in Quatre Bras is 22 turns long which would seem to indicate a very long game requiring multiple sessions to complete, especially for newbies. Do other titles in the system (that have updated game-specific rules suitable for play with ML) have shorter scenarios that are more appropriate for learning the system?

Thanks,

Tom
Tom

Since there have been no answers to your question;

I'm also no novice as a wargamer, but for me, learning the la bat system is almost like playing miniatures. I plan to play one area of the map, a few units at a time. I pretty much learn by hands on, sort of play and read. The ML rules are lighter than the XXII that I'm using, but the procedure for learning the system will be the same.

I've skimmed the rules and have an idea of what's going on. I've studied the counters so that I can understand their format, and after the setup I'm just going to follow the sequence and continue until I understand it. There are some posters here that I think would have no problem answering questions about play, as long as it doesn't turn into 'stalking'.

Pretty sure 2 players would have better time of it, having 2 different views on the system as play commences, although solo I don't need to worry when I can get to it. But as far as how long, I have no idea.

Maybe there is or should create an ongoing forum for la bataille questions/answers?

Have fun, I know I plan to!
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The original game system with a few updates still exists. Checkout new games free for download, rules and articles by the original designers.
Don't listen to a cover band.


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I don't remember which game I played first but it was a 'smaller' game. Just set it up and play, preferably with a friend who has played before. Just have fun, don't sweat the mistakes and enjoy the process.

If you have a favorite battle that fits the 'smallish' label and is covered by the system. Knowing something about how the actual battle progressed will help you with the strategy.

Also, from personal experience, I will warn you that 'certain substances' are not really a good idea until AFTER you adjust to being disabled. Your life and metabolism are about to change a LOT more than you think and in ways you just cannot predict (and I cannot predict for you). I cannot drink alcohol any more (it makes me feel 'bad' for a few days).
 
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