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Subject: Pulling the Plug on V&V rss

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Barry Doyle
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Hello Folks,

It's with a heavy heart I'm announcing the closing of the V&V site, effective immediately.

I'm pulling it because I know there are folks who have offered to produce, or are producing, copies to sell. Not only have they not asked permission, but -- as far as I know -- have never even given a donation. I'm not making any money off of V&V, so I damned well don't deserve to have someone take and sell what I've worked so hard on. I know I promised a lot more, and I'm truly sorry for not coming through, but I refuse to give them anything else to add to their list.

Andrew Tullsen is the only person who has asked, and been given, permission to sell V&V components.

Those of you who have ever written, asking for permissiom to do something V&V related, know that I have never said no. Not once. I've always been open and appreciative of your support, and the effort you've made to make V&V a better game.

I kindly ask, in all sincerity, that you not add anything new to the game, here on BGG or elsewhere -- scenarios are the exception, as we could always use more. I want to preserve what little value I may have left in the game for a potential publisher, whether that's me or someone else. The files you have are for your personal enjoyment, and I hope you continue to share them with your gaming friends who will appreciate them.

I may set up a blog to keep you up-to-date on what I'm working on, but the files I produce will not be freely available. I may sell them, but that's still something I need to work out.

Thanks for everything you guys have done, and all of your support. You know I appreciate all that you've contributed to make V&V more enjoyable for me, and to make it a better game for the entire community. On top of all of that, kudos to all of you for helping maintain one of the best communities on BGG.

Cheers,

-Barry
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Team Ski
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Well that sucks! I wish you the best of luck Barry. You have put your heart and soul into the game and it really shows. I certainly hope you can find a publisher to produce the game. It deserves a wider audience. Thanks for one hell of a game!

-Ski
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Joe Kundlak
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(@*&%(^#($*&@(!!!!! to all those basterds out there!

We have one of the few decent FREE games available and what do they do? They try to rip off Barry!!!


Barry,
keep up the good work and though this is a sad moment in history of VV, do not be discouraged by the black sheep... Move on, soldier! Up that hill!
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Alysa
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That indeed sucks Barry, I'm sad to hear that...

I surely hope you weren't referring to me since, yes, I do offer V&V as part of my PnP items I sell but was also planning on asking your permission before anyone is going to buy a copy of me.

True, I did 'sell' one to a friend of mine back in November but I actually managed to lose money on it since I included all the new stuff that came out afterwards and that was okay since it was for a friend anyways...
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The Real Stabliser
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Wh.... but... I.... Awww...
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-=[Ran Over]=-
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Public shaming is one of very few weapons available against this sort of behavior ... so I suggest naming names.
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Piero
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DAMN IT!

For what's worth I had fun playing this game!

And it is a shame that the whole has to pay for the deeds of the few.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Perhaps AH might be interested..
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Joeyeti wrote:
(@*&%(^#($*&@(!!!!! to all those basterds out there!

We have one of the few decent FREE games available and what do they do? They try to rip off Barry!!!


Barry,
keep up the good work and though this is a sad moment in history of VV, do not be discouraged by the black sheep... Move on, soldier! Up that hill! :star::star::star::star::star:


I have to say that if he does not charge for it but others do then what are they providing he does not? Why is someone willing to pay for something they can get for free?
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Tim
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Dang. I don't even play the game, and I'm sorry to hear about this. It sucks Barry... but I thought there was some news not long ago about someone who was picking this up for publishing? (I follow PnP in general, even though I haven't played your game, I'm aware of how adored it is in the community) There was talk about pulling the files down off BGG, then you decided to leave them up? Perhaps I'm misremembering.

Maybe someday when the emotions subside, and the pressure of trying to come up with new things seems like a fond memory more than a soul-crushing responsibility, you can dust it off and try again (maybe even with a real publisher).

Best of luck you to, and thanks for giving to the community.
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Wulf Corbett
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slatersteven wrote:
I have to say that if he does not charge for it but others do then what are they providing he does not? Why is someone willing to pay for something they can get for free?
Component quality. many people can't, or won't, print & mount their own components (that's more complex than it sounds - to print the boards at full size, or the rulebook as a full-size booklet, requires an A3 printer, for instance). There are plenty of people on BGG who won't buy a wargame with a paper map, but not only would pay more for a mounted map, but demand that it be made so. Most people won't make their own. Many would pay for someone else to do so.

But the creator has the rights to restrict the reproduction of his intellectual property. Yes, that's right - this is just like the restrictions on Space Hulk and Ogre. Make your own game, with your own maps, counters, and rulebook, without copying or reproducing any original material, copyright or trademark material, and you're fine. But directly reproducing material without the creator - and, by default, copyright owner - ain't on.
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Alysa
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I still would like to know what people Barry is referring to and if Barry contacted those people directly...

I don't see many people offerring V&V for sale...
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Boaty McBoatface
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I have to say that if he does not charge for it but others do then what are they providing he does not? Why is someone willing to pay for something they can get for free?
Component quality. many people can't, or won't, print & mount their own components (that's more complex than it sounds - to print the boards at full size, or the rulebook as a full-size booklet, requires an A3 printer, for instance). There are plenty of people on BGG who won't buy a wargame with a paper map, but not only would pay more for a mounted map, but demand that it be made so. Most people won't make their own. Many would pay for someone else to do so.

But the creator has the rights to restrict the reproduction of his intellectual property. Yes, that's right - this is just like the restrictions on Space Hulk and Ogre. Make your own game, with your own maps, counters, and rulebook, without copying or reproducing any original material, copyright or trademark material, and you're fine. But directly reproducing material without the creator - and, by default, copyright owner - ain't on.


What was the licensing agreement, surely if they have breached copyright (and they are a company) then he can ask for compensation (and if they are not and are in fact just ordinary gamers why does he not provide this service instead?)? I would have thought that if these people did not want to go thru all this bother and would rather pay for it he has not lost out in any way. Other then the fact that others have made money from a product he gave away. Indeed it could be argued that these actions have in fact presented the game to a wider audience then might have otherwise bothered with it. Yes its his intellectual property, but he has not lost by these actions and indead could now market the game to a publisher as a viable economic prospect with an audience rather then as a free game with no clear economic potential. Did he ask them to desist? has he at any point he asserted his interlectual copyright? Was this avaiible on a wholey open licence?
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Christian Skupin
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Wow, what a way to end my weekend. Straight in the nuts! I didn't even get the latest stuff, because me PC was bugging out. A sad turn of events for the game that made me register to BGG.

Thanks for everything, Barry.
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Mike MacMartin
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Wow, this seriously sucks. V&V was on my list of games to build, about two or three from now, after doing 18AL. I was looking forward to mounting and cutting out mounds of counters, and those maps looked pretty damn awesome!

I would love to have permission to print out the game for myself. I have been interested in WW2 hex'n'chit, and this would have been a great way in.

I am disappointed that you feel that this is the way forward: I have been keeping some tabs on the game, and you have done some great things with V&V. Some people who would otherwise not play in the genre have because of this game. You have a nice, simple game going here with some great ways of introducing variations between units. (Although I have not built the game, I have read the rules). I hope you change your mind, but understand the way you feel about this.
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Barry Doyle
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Aenea wrote:
I still would like to know what people Barry is referring to and if Barry contacted those people directly...

I don't see many people offerring V&V for sale...


I shouldn't have to contact anyone, Alysa -- that's ludicrous. You should know on your own what you should and shouldn't do.

The top of the files page specifically stated the files were for your personal enjoyment only, and not to be distributed without permission.

All you had to do was ask, and I'm afraid good intentions don't get it done.
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Boaty McBoatface
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AnglePark wrote:
Aenea wrote:
I still would like to know what people Barry is referring to and if Barry contacted those people directly...

I don't see many people offerring V&V for sale...


I shouldn't have to contact anyone, Alysa -- that's ludicrous. You should know on your own what you should and shouldn't do.

The top of the files page specifically stated the files were for your personal enjoyment only, and not to be distributed without permission.

All you had to do was ask, and I'm afraid good intentions don't get it done.


Actualy if some one breaches your copyright I beleive you are supposed to issue and stop and desist request. But you are also right they should have aske your permision, but (unless you have told them to stop) they could well argue that they carried out thier publishing in good faith (they were not aware that they had breached your copyright (for example if they only sold it at cost, after making a copy and deciding they did not like it)). You would have had to prove willfull intent.
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Arrigo Velicogna
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and in the end the gamers lose...

I had just discovered V&V, I was reading the rules and deciding to download and print... then I am stipped with rules, counters but no scenarios or maps...

and I have to thank someone who just cannot understand basic civil rules... soblue

oh, V&V was to good to be true...

if my opinion counts I would suggest to continue to have the website, at this point people know what is yours and what is not and people who are reselling them will nost stop just beacuse you stop the website. They have already the pdfs... and the people who buy from them... uhm I doubt they will stop anyway. Simply continue to offer the basic material, but do not add anything else until you have cleared the situation and your battle plan.

and put a big announcement on your website about the problem. Otherwise the people who will hit more are the legitimate gamers not the pirates.

Arrigo
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David desJardins
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You can do what you want, but it seems counterproductive to me. If you don't mind a player printing and cutting and playing with the components (and in fact it's good for you because it gets more people playing the game), then you should be just as happy if one person pays another person to do that physical labor so that they can play the game.
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Pete
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slatersteven wrote:
AnglePark wrote:
Aenea wrote:
I still would like to know what people Barry is referring to and if Barry contacted those people directly...

I don't see many people offerring V&V for sale...


I shouldn't have to contact anyone, Alysa -- that's ludicrous. You should know on your own what you should and shouldn't do.

The top of the files page specifically stated the files were for your personal enjoyment only, and not to be distributed without permission.

All you had to do was ask, and I'm afraid good intentions don't get it done.


Actualy if some one breaches your copyright I beleive you are supposed to issue and stop and desist request. But you are also right they should have aske your permision, but (unless you have told them to stop) they could well argue that they carried out thier publishing in good faith (they were not aware that they had breached your copyright (for example if they only sold it at cost, after making a copy and deciding they did not like it)). You would have had to prove willfull intent.


Steven, I don't think that Barry is trying to make a legal argument. You're right that if he wanted to carry on, he would have to send (have an attorney send, actually), cease-and-desist notices to those whom he feels have done something wrong.

But I believe that the point that he's making is that he had higher expectations of those in the BGG community. I think that this is less about someone who's mad about not getting paid and more about someone who feels somewhat betrayed by the community.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Mad Archeologist wrote:
and in the end the gamers lose...

I had just discovered V&V, I was reading the rules and deciding to download and print... then I am stipped with rules, counters but no scenarios or maps...

and I have to thank someone who just cannot understand basic civil rules... :soblue:

oh, V&V was to good to be true...

if my opinion counts I would suggest to continue to have the website, at this point people know what is yours and what is not and people who are reselling them will nost stop just beacuse you stop the website. They have already the pdfs... and the people who buy from them... uhm I doubt they will stop anyway. Simply continue to offer the basic material, but do not add anything else until you have cleared the situation and your battle plan.

and put a big announcement on your website about the problem. Otherwise the people who will hit more are the legitimate gamers not the pirates.

Arrigo


Good mpoint, all it means is that theyu make money (and any one who wants the game has no choice but to pay for it from them). In fact this benifits them, whilst in no way helping you.
 
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Barry Doyle
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DaviddesJ wrote:
You can do what you want, but it seems counterproductive to me. If you don't mind a player printing and cutting and playing with the components (and in fact it's good for you because it gets more people playing the game), then you should be just as happy if one person pays another person to do that physical labor so that they can play the game.


David, there was a simple request on the site not to distribute the files without permission.

If someone wants to sell a PNP squad-level game, they can either develop their own, or ask permission. It's pretty simple math, dude.

I don't care how much time, effort, and materials someone puts into producing the game -- without all of the time, effort, and skill I've put into developing it they've got nothing.

I guess that's a hard concept for the entitlement generation to grasp.
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Boaty McBoatface
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somerandomguy wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
AnglePark wrote:
Aenea wrote:
I still would like to know what people Barry is referring to and if Barry contacted those people directly...

I don't see many people offerring V&V for sale...


I shouldn't have to contact anyone, Alysa -- that's ludicrous. You should know on your own what you should and shouldn't do.

The top of the files page specifically stated the files were for your personal enjoyment only, and not to be distributed without permission.

All you had to do was ask, and I'm afraid good intentions don't get it done.


Actualy if some one breaches your copyright I beleive you are supposed to issue and stop and desist request. But you are also right they should have aske your permision, but (unless you have told them to stop) they could well argue that they carried out thier publishing in good faith (they were not aware that they had breached your copyright (for example if they only sold it at cost, after making a copy and deciding they did not like it)). You would have had to prove willfull intent.


Steven, I don't think that Barry is trying to make a legal argument. You're right that if he wanted to carry on, he would have to send (have an attorney send, actually), cease-and-desist notices to those whom he feels have done something wrong.

But I believe that the point that he's making is that he had higher expectations of those in the BGG community. I think that this is less about someone who's mad about not getting paid and more about someone who feels somewhat betrayed by the community.


But its not the community thats to blame, its a few bad eggs. As has been poinbted out tey can still seel it whilst everyone else will noe be forced to pay them for it. it seems to me to be punishing everyone becasue a tiny percentage cannot be trusted. Its a bit like buring down a village becaseu one child steals a chicken.
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Boaty McBoatface
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AnglePark wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
You can do what you want, but it seems counterproductive to me. If you don't mind a player printing and cutting and playing with the components (and in fact it's good for you because it gets more people playing the game), then you should be just as happy if one person pays another person to do that physical labor so that they can play the game.


David, there was a simple request on the site not to distribute the files without permission.

If someone wants to sell a PNP squad-level game, they can either develop their own, or ask permission. It's pretty simple math, dude.

I don't care how much time, effort, and materials someone puts into producing the game -- without all of the time, effort, and skill I've put into developing it they've got nothing.

I guess that's a hard concept for the entitlement generation to grasp.


Not at all. But it is to understand collective punishment, which is what this is.
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Barry Doyle
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somerandomguy wrote:
But I believe that the point that he's making is that he had higher expectations of those in the BGG community. I think that this is less about someone who's mad about not getting paid and more about someone who feels somewhat betrayed by the community.


I don't think a lot of folks wandering in here want to understand that, Pete -- they're here just for the sake of argument. Many of them have never even been an active part of the V&V community, and know nothing of the history of the game.
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