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Subject: BSW sucks rss

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Chris Sauder
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I've noticed there are certain games that attract more jerks like Tichu, and Dominion. BSW is great for playing games, but it takes the social aspect out of the gaming and with the win/loss records a lot of people do play for ego, myself included to a degree. I never join a game that I don't intend to finish, earlier in my BSW experience I did abandon games, but not anymore. There are a lot of good people there I think it's just a matter of getting to know the customs of BSW, much like when you go to another country.

You should register cause many including myself are wary of letting unregistered people play cause they're the ones that tend to quit games. Always good courtesy to ask before you join, though I can't count the number of times I've went into a Dominion room and asked only to have some guy join without asking and the game starting. I just go to another room and host myself.

BSW isn't the easiest to figure out either, I've put my time in to figure it out and I do enjoy it alot. For online gaming BSW is where I go cause I'm familiar with it, though I'm interested in another service like BSW. Boardgames are best played in person, but the speed and ease in which you can speed through a variety of games on BSW is cool too. I like not having to shuffle my deck of Dominion cards all the time.

It is sad to see a thread like this cause it means there's one less cool person to meet and play with on BSW. I've been there for many years now. My nickname is Makelith, I'm a citizen of Englishtown C10, and I'm W18, I'd love to play with more BGGers, so look me up and we can play a game.

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Curt Carpenter
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
3 words: Board. Game. Arena.
(Referral links)

Non-bloated interface (compare Stone Age), rating system (also automatic penalties for quitters), turn timer, everyone is registered, no silly metagame.
I had never played there, but had looked at the website and was turned off. But you finally convinced me to try, and I did. Penalty for quitting probably does help. As does the time monitoring. And the de-emphasis from chat in general. I can't agree that the interface is better, though, especially for Stone Age, which I think BSW did quite well. I don't like on BGA how you can't chat before you start a game. What's someone to do if they want a 3 or 4p game? I dont like how you can't chat after the game, and can't restart the game. And can't watch a game. And for the game itself I think I like BSW better. From a technical perspective, I had to F5 the browser every few turns, but I'll assume that's just me for now.

Although the verbal abuse can be the problem with BSW, chatting has also resulted in some great experiences. It sems that BGA (in its curent form) can't replicate that very well. I HATE how the gameplay log is intermingled with the chat log. Way too easy to miss a chat message. Not very conducive to social discussions.

Or does it have more to do with the size of the player base and age of the service? After all, I didn't see many people complaining about lots of jerks on BSW 5 years ago. But probably not. I hate to stereotype, but the Greek effect on BSW (at least for Tichu) seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon.
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curtc wrote:
kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
3 words: Board. Game. Arena.
(Referral links)

Non-bloated interface (compare Stone Age), rating system (also automatic penalties for quitters), turn timer, everyone is registered, no silly metagame.
I had never played there, but had looked at the website and was turned off. But you finally convinced me to try, and I did. Penalty for quitting probably does help. As does the time monitoring. And the de-emphasis from chat in general. I can't agree that the interface is better, though, especially for Stone Age, which I think BSW did quite well. I don't like on BGA how you can't chat before you start a game. What's someone to do if they want a 3 or 4p game? I dont like how you can't chat after the game, and can't restart the game. And can't watch a game. And for the game itself I think I like BSW better. From a technical perspective, I had to F5 the browser every few turns, but I'll assume that's just me for now.

Although the verbal abuse can be the problem with BSW, chatting has also resulted in some great experiences. It sems that BGA (in its curent form) can't replicate that very well. I HATE how the gameplay log is intermingled with the chat log. Way too easy to miss a chat message. Not very conducive to social discussions.

Or does it have more to do with the size of the player base and age of the service? After all, I didn't see many people complaining about lots of jerks on BSW 5 years ago. But probably not. I hate to stereotype, but the Greek effect on BSW (at least for Tichu) seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon.

I'm glad you tried. The chat works for me, especially since there is a distinct sound when that happens. In BSW the same happens, and I miss messages because the chat scrolls down. Also the chat window becomes tiny (1-2 lines) if I try to resize the client.

You can watch games. You can chat after games. Look closer. I rarely F5 anymore - use Firefox.

As for the stereotyping, if you hate doing it... don't.
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Expecting BSW to be any different than any other non-selective gathering of gamers is a ridiculous expectation on the face of it. I used to, as one example, toddle around New Jersey's game store scene playing M:tG with various and sundry. The groups that were established in various stores around Union County were all perfectly fine and mostly welcoming of new players, and yet, almost as if by "magic" people would drop in, be rude, offensive, insist on particular play styles, and generally benefit nobody but themselves and the people who didn't care what sort of misanthrope they faced across a table. For every two or three of those, dozens of friendly, eager, competitive yet enjoyable gamers existed as a lovely counterbalance.

I don't doubt that the demographics at BSW have shifted quite a bit over the years. What I do doubt is that if you find a town there with a sufficient number of active, friendly players, and you restrict your play as much as possible to games with them as opponents, that you would have anywhere near the level of disgruntlement displayed by those who just plop into random games with anybody. Anybody can own a computer, and anybody can (at least for awhile) play at BSW, but in the absence of "selectivity" options, find people there you like and stick with them. They're in plentiful supply, but it may just be beyond the capabilities of some participating in this thread to stick out the process of finding them.
 
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MisterCranky wrote:
They're in plentiful supply, but it may just be beyond the capabilities of some participating in this thread to stick out the process of finding them.

BSW makes it very hard. It's like a dating site where you can only sort by height. Sure, there are decent people in plentiful supply. But how hard is it to find them?
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David, if you enter BSW without a friend or two already there to show you the ropes, it IS quite hard. I'd never argue that it isn't. However, it's eminently worth it, although for those unwilling to make the effort that's a moot point.

Effort, in this case, consists of behaving exactly as you want the others you game with to behave, and making a note of those players you've met who behave that way as well. It's extremely easy to set up a watch list at any time during any activity on BSW. If you suddenly think to yourself, "this gal is great fun to play Dominion with," or "I had a great time when I randomly visited town such and such and chatted with the residents that were hanging around" (who knows how often this happens any more...since I don't need to run around towns looking for friends any longer, and haven't for years, I have no idea) you simply type /add watch so-and-so
and then /save. Bingo, you're alerted to that(those) player(s) presence in the future. Spending time reading whatever you can translate on brettspielwelt.de is also key.

The interface and the meaningful edits one can make to one's prop file are all pretty much available, but just jumping feet-first into the client and hoping for the best is probably asking for trouble.

People at BSW are just as much people as the ones here at BGG. If somebody behaves rudely to you, feel free to tell them that you are insulted, and that they are ruining your enjoyment of the site. If it's a cultural disconnect, it's sometimes possible to build a bridge that way. If it's just another person being an ass, then /mute them, /save, and finish the game as best you can, before never bothering with them again. You can only get from BSW what you're willing to put in--if you want the enjoyment of playing with friendly people, you have to make an effort to find them. Advertising for opponents here at BGG is one relatively painless way. We've done it in Chit Chat, we've done it in GeekQuestions, and I don't doubt it happens in other fora here equally well. Starting a thread to bitch about BSW? Cursing the darkness fail.
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MisterCranky wrote:
David, if you enter BSW without a friend or two already there to show you the ropes, it IS quite hard.

And just think what that means for people like me with no friends!

Quote:
If you suddenly think to yourself, "this gal is great fun to play Dominion with," or "I had a great time when I randomly visited town such and such and chatted with the residents that were hanging around" (who knows how often this happens any more...since I don't need to run around towns looking for friends any longer, and haven't for years, I have no idea) you simply type /add watch so-and-so
and then /save.

Exactly. But suppose I want to play primarily with the best players. Or the people who play the fastest. Or those who prefer 4-player games.

Your example is exactly what I meant when I said that BSW is organized for players who want to find opponents one way (i.e., through social interactions) but not in other ways.

Quote:
if you want the enjoyment of playing with friendly people, you have to make an effort to find them.

I wouldn't say that I want to play with friendly people.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
curtc wrote:
I'm sort of curious: does anyone have any ideas why people are the way they are there? And what sort of changes would result in either nicer people, or the same people behaving nicer?

The main reason is there are no tools for players to find matches with compatible players. So the people who want to play fast get stuck in games with the people who want to play slow, and the people who want to play competitively get stuck in games with the people who want to play casually. Personality conflicts ensue.

Solution would be better player matching tools. But this is more or less incompatible with the operators' apparent vision for the site, so I doubt it will happen.

I agree. There is a way to indicate the type of game you want to play on BSW, and I have had good luck with that (in Dominion anyway....fast, beginner, easy, etc). I used it alot when I was learning the BSW Dominion interface (I indicated "beginner").

In fact, I generally have good experiences playing Dominion at BSW. I indicate something casual and it helps me to avoid the ugly personalities.

They should make this more obvious.

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Len
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ldsdbomber wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
ldsdbomber wrote:
He is still waiting there desperate to pad his stats. I think thats what drives these people. It actually means something to them to get as many wins as they can, they no longer care about playing the game, except to add one more win to their total.

That doesn't make any sense as an explanation here, since if he wanted to get as many wins as possible, he would have preferred the move that let him win the game sooner and get on to the next one....

quit playing the smartass David, he didn't know I was going to just let the game sit, he wanted to win but he wanted to win by as much as humanly possible despite the obvious and only possible motivation for me doing what I did to end the game 1 round early.

People like you make me feel old and tired. Like, really.

Do you think it makes you look cool when you say things like "I wouldn't say i would want to play with friendly people". We know you're not interested in that, just like JC isn't, you don't need to state it in every thread like we give a monkeys. Most people here DO want to play games in a friendly environment and most people DO want to play to have fun. You're just smart enough to realise that but not quite smart enough to think that playing the robotspeak contrarian as often as possible just irritates people.

I am not trying to be irritating here, but there are folks who are not very interested in friendly play (i.e., social interaction), but are just interested in playing the game.

For example, I see many games in progress marked "fast" at BSW-Dominion. I don't like those, but I do see these games in which the players are not chatting, and move through the Dominion game very quickly and efficiently. They don't really care how friendly you are...so it is possible David was not being a contrarian (in this case, anyway ).

But, I will let David speak for himself.
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LSMB wrote:
But, I will let David speak for himself.

Some things shouldn't be dignified with a response.
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MisterCranky wrote:
Expecting BSW to be any different than any other non-selective gathering of gamers is a ridiculous expectation on the face of it. I used to, as one example, toddle around New Jersey's game store scene playing M:tG with various and sundry. The groups that were established in various stores around Union County were all perfectly fine and mostly welcoming of new players, and yet, almost as if by "magic" people would drop in, be rude, offensive, insist on particular play styles, and generally benefit nobody but themselves and the people who didn't care what sort of misanthrope they faced across a table. For every two or three of those, dozens of friendly, eager, competitive yet enjoyable gamers existed as a lovely counterbalance.

I don't doubt that the demographics at BSW have shifted quite a bit over the years. What I do doubt is that if you find a town there with a sufficient number of active, friendly players, and you restrict your play as much as possible to games with them as opponents, that you would have anywhere near the level of disgruntlement displayed by those who just plop into random games with anybody. Anybody can own a computer, and anybody can (at least for awhile) play at BSW, but in the absence of "selectivity" options, find people there you like and stick with them. They're in plentiful supply, but it may just be beyond the capabilities of some participating in this thread to stick out the process of finding them.

Instead of lowering our expectations to what BSW, how about we make the standard to be politeness, accountability, and friendliness.

If I enter a bar where everybody is a jerk, I leave. I am not going to sit there and find the boor with a heart of gold, nor will I entertain 45-year-old spoiled brats. It's much easier to go to that friendly, clean place across the street. Life's too short for /commands.
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If I enter a bar where everybody is a jerk, I leave.

It might be interesting to ask why the bars full of jerks even exist.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If I enter a bar where everybody is a jerk, I leave.

It might be interesting to ask why the bars full of jerks even exist.

They're the neighbourhood bars, they've always just been there, most people don't know there's alternatives, and despite the fact that some non-jerks hang out, there's a core group of jerks that sustains them. If there wasn't an alternative, I would still go in for the occasional drink.
 
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Playing with live, breathing humans does have it's advantages.
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If I enter a bar where everybody is a jerk, I leave. I am not going to sit there and find the boor with a heart of gold, nor will I entertain 45-year-old spoiled brats. It's much easier to go to that friendly, clean place across the street. Life's too short for /commands.
But if it's the only bar in town (as BSW is, at least for some games), then you have to decide whether to go there and suffer the problems, or not play at all.

I have only "met" nice people on BSW, so that's not my issue. I wish there were more/better alternatives because I find the meta-UI so excruciating. The game UI's tend to be quite good, but finding your way into rooms and cities is truly user-hostile.

Sadly, each of the other sites has its own set of problems. I'm still looking for a great online gaming site. For the right set of games, I would happily pay a subscription fee for a great site.
 
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peakhope wrote:
kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If I enter a bar where everybody is a jerk, I leave. I am not going to sit there and find the boor with a heart of gold, nor will I entertain 45-year-old spoiled brats. It's much easier to go to that friendly, clean place across the street. Life's too short for /commands.
But if it's the only bar in town (as BSW is, at least for some games), then you have to decide whether to go there and suffer the problems, or not play at all.

kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
3 words: Board. Game. Arena.
(Referral links)

Non-bloated interface (compare Stone Age), rating system (also automatic penalties for quitters), turn timer, everyone is registered, no silly metagame.

Give it a try. If you do, they will get some scale, and will be able to add more games, as they just did with Puerto Rico.
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I've played quite a bit of Dominion and some games of 7 Wonders on BSW, overall I've had good experiences.

If you are new to a game. I think it is important to state up front...I've never played this game on this system, the interface is new to me,BUT i have read the tutorial. I think most people are cool if you are up front, some may decline but that is their perogative.

but I've seen very few jerks on BSW, and I just ignore those that tell me to play faster.
 
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I don't have any experience with BSW - for me, the idea of playing board games sorta misses the whole point of having a game with actual, physical pieces to move around, as well as the whole face-to-face social aspect. However, although I'm not sure this completely applies, this discussion did remind me of an interesting paper I read about unsportsmanlike conduct on the SNES/Sega XBAND system:

http://www.fadden.com/techmisc/online-game-conduct.htm
 
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
The chat works for me, especially since there is a distinct sound when that happens. In BSW the same happens, and I miss messages because the chat scrolls down. Also the chat window becomes tiny (1-2 lines) if I try to resize the client.
The chat in BGA is in the game log. And the game is very chatty, spewing a log for every single thing that happens. So chat scrolls off. Chat only scrolls off in BSW if people are chatting. Or things like people entering/exiting, which generally is a low % of content, at least once the game starts. When you resize the BSW client, you can simply make it taller for more chat.

kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
You can watch games. You can chat after games. Look closer.
Yes, I figured out how to watch a game. Very unintuitive.

kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
As for the stereotyping, if you hate doing it... don't.
I do things I hate, on occasion, when I think there is some benefit in doing so. Like pulling weeds.
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Makelith wrote:

It is sad to see a thread like this cause it means there's one less cool person to meet and play with on BSW. I've been there for many years now. My nickname is Makelith, I'm a citizen of Englishtown C10, and I'm W18, I'd love to play with more BGGers, so look me up and we can play a game.


I agree with this sentiment entirely. One of the things that was passing through my mind as I read this thread, and the responses within, was that we could (should?) probably set up a list of BGG User BSW ids somewhere. Then, put folks on watch lists and play with them!

I just added you Makelith. I'm Phoebus on there as well.
I welcome watch list additions by anyone else who wants to play and if you see me online when you jump on... drop me a line and we'll see what we can get together to play!


Edit: I just noticed that there's already a thread on this forum that talks about BGGers on BSW. However, it'll be tedious to go through it all again on a case-by-case basis. I wonder if it'd be OK to start a fresh one and maintain a comprehensive list in the first post...
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I don't find BSW to be distinctively different than any other online site, my in person game nights, or frankly the rest of life. Some people I encounter I want to befriend, others I hope I never see ever again, and the rest I'm indifferent to.

Yeah, there are some truly awful people there but there are some great ones, too. The question to ask yourself is do you have (or want to spend) the time finding the right people and dealing with the wrong ones. Either choice is valid; for me, it's been worth it. I even joined the "silly metagame" and met some fantastic people from different parts of the world.

But I can certainly see how easily one can be turned off by BSW. They have a lot of good free games with no ads, but no standards either.
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anomander64 wrote:
I used to play on BSW quite a lot and mostly encountered nice people. Sure, every now and then you struck someone who was rude or impatient, but these were in the minority.

Over time the problem got progressively worse, with more and more obnoxious people just dumping games or making life miserable, to the point where I gave up, as I'm sure many other people have done.

I recently discovered that 7 Wonders was available on BSW and decided to give it a go. Noticing a free room I stepped in and asked if they minded a new player. The first thing I cop is a mouthful of abuse. So I tried another game only to cop an even more withering gobfull. I never even got to play a game before I decided to just drop the idea again.

What kind of place has BSW become? Why are all the people there such knobs? No wonder nobody wants to go there any more when it is filled with such arseholes.

Sorry. I just needed to get that out of my system.

Change "BSW" above by "WoW". Or anything online that has mass appeal.
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curtc wrote:
I'm sort of curious: does anyone have any ideas why people are the way they are there? And what sort of changes would result in either nicer people, or the same people behaving nicer?

Take away stats and ranking and this problem mostly goes away. BSW suffers from the same problem that yucata does (though it is worse at BSW). The disease called "I want to see my name on top of an internet list" as if it means you are a better gamer or something.

People that "master" those games are just copying what they've seen others do. It ruins the game really. I groan when I see one of my favorites put online.
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Played some on BSW. Mostly it works, sometimes you have to look for a little bit before you find a good person to play with.

I like to chat but am fine with just playing the game.

It isn't really BSW that sucks, but rather some people who frequent the site.
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To the OP:

I really appreciate the sentiment you are expressing, but I don't think you can necessarily blame BSW for the poor behavior of it's user. BY title your thread 'BSW sucks' you seem as reactionary and as impatient as the people you're complaining about.

Why not something more like 'Since when did BSW fill up with dipsticks?' or something.
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