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Subject: Clarifications in the new PDF rules and counter/card errors? rss

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John Hogan
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Do the new PDF rules available for download address or clarify the numerous questions and errors that have been mentioned in the previous posts?

I must say that while I love the game concept, it is a bit disconcerting when so many issues are raised in such a short period of time. The response time has been great however and because of this I have become a fan of the Author.

I would love to see a codified errata, list of chit and card misprints etc. before I invest anymore time into the game.
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Andrea
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I'm really fed up with these games from LnL full of mistakes, misprints, errata.... I waited 7 months in order to get right counters for Operation Garbo. I was very eager to buy this game, but this time I think I will pass... You can fool me once, not twice.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Current PDF isnt with eratta. Thats coming in a diffrent file and later seems to be planned updating the PDF rules as goes.

The reason theres so many mistakes is that the game was not open to free PNP very long and I believe once it was announced the game was going to actual publication, people just waited and placed orders. The rules as published, which have several elements not in the original. Were thusly not open to the more rigorous playtesting you are seeing now as the FAQ grows.
 
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Reverie Solitaire
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Rules...
Flip-flop. Itch-scratch.
This booger-bear definitely grows on you.

Sometimes i'm looking for Brillo, then sometimes i'm wishing to be in one of *those* suits!

Keep the feedback coming; it just gets better and better!

Reverie
 
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Gottardo Zancani
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Quote:
Do the new PDF rules available for download address or clarify the numerous questions and errors that have been mentioned in the previous posts?


Not yet: the rules available online fixed only one problem with the Example of play.

Quote:
I must say that while I love the game concept, it is a bit disconcerting when so many issues are raised in such a short period of time.


Since most of the questions are around the same topics (Command points, wounds allocation) it's clear that my original design of the rules is not clear enough in some areas: the playtester group probably "assimilated" the clarifications during the discussion around the game.

Quote:
I would love to see a codified errata, list of chit and card misprints etc. before I invest anymore time into the game.


I'm planning to release the Errata and Clarifications next week: i'll prepare the new PDF, including all the errata, later this summer so that it would be (i hope) as complete and clear as possible. In the meantime i'll try to support the player community as fast as possible: and if you have some specific question please drop me an email to zak965@libero.it

Zak
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Andrea
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Quote:


I'm planning to release the Errata and Clarifications next week: i'll prepare the new PDF, including all the errata, later this summer

Zak


Later this summer?? Why not next year on Spring?
 
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Scott Lewis
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andymase wrote:
Quote:


I'm planning to release the Errata and Clarifications next week: i'll prepare the new PDF, including all the errata, later this summer

Zak


Later this summer?? Why not next year on Spring?

Dude, chill out. Not ever game designer does that exclusively for a living. Some people do have lives outside of gaming, even game designers.

Gottardo has been very forthcoming in answering questions and trying to help people out. What more do you want from him?

Or do you just like to complain?
 
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Gottardo Zancani
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Later this summer = July: i surely need one month to consolidate the feedback on a coherent way.
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Andrea
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sigmazero13 wrote:
andymase wrote:
Quote:


I'm planning to release the Errata and Clarifications next week: i'll prepare the new PDF, including all the errata, later this summer

Zak


Later this summer?? Why not next year on Spring?

Dude, chill out. Not ever game designer does that exclusively for a living. Some people do have lives outside of gaming, even game designers.

Gottardo has been very forthcoming in answering questions and trying to help people out. What more do you want from him?

Or do you just like to complain?


Dude, I think I chilled out enough in the last year, waiting for LNL to fix its games and improve their production quality.

Here we are talking about "professions", "industry", "money" and "customers"; not about "hobbysts", "friends" and "free games". I don't care that much about a game designer life, when he (or, better, the company he works for) charge money for its faulty products. For some reasons, in this industry selling crippled games is becoming the rule, not an accident. And I'm fed with this philosophy.

If you managed to launch a product full of mistakes and misprint is your DUTY "answering questions and trying to help people out". And it's the VERY MINIMUM you can do about it. It's not a matter of "kindness" or "willingness". Do you think it's fair to sell a faulty item and "repair" it when you have some spare time?

By the way, if you print wrong counters you cannot solve the issue uploading a corrected jpeg your customer must print, cut and glue: may be we are getting used to this treatment, after years of abuses, but it's a bloody unfair treatment nonetheless. Even more when you paid 40 bucks for a professional produced game! If a counters or a map is wrong, you, company, are supposed to produce a correct one and send it to me for free. These are not Print'n play games.

So no, I'm not going to chill out any more on this subject. And if in the last few years more gamers had raised their voices about this issue, instead of taking silently whatever it comes, now we would have much higher quality products on the market, and companies would not use theirs paying customers as free play-testers.

Industry philosophy is: I produce what I can, make people wait for years, sell some hundreds copies, avoid proper playtesting (and save time and money) and then wait for the "gamers feedback"; they test my game, they tell me were the rules are wrong, they tell me which counters are misprint and then, when I'm ready and willing, I will "consolidate" these feedback in a new revised edition, that I will sell again. Easy, isn'it? I don't risk a cent (I wait for pre-orders) and every risk is on my customers. I printed 40 wrong counters? I put a revised PDF on the Web and my customers will do my job for me. I printed a wrong rule booklet? I put a revised PDF on the Web and my customers will use their inks and paper... And you know what? I can sell this as" customer care", "living rules", "support". This is not "customer care", this is patching!! Most of "living rules" is patching in real time, on the fly, step by step, while the publisher discover new errata, new incongruences, new convoluted paragraphs... And the gamer thinks "Oh, this is a publisher that really support his products and cares about his products!". Ever heard of games that works out of the box? Is gaming in itself a struggle against incomplete and faulty games? Where Quality Assurance has gone? Ehi guy, we are talking about 40-80 bucks items!!

By the way, this devilish behavior will be the end of the "pre-order way of producing": because nowadays everybody knows is better to wait for the revised/deluxe/second edition so to avoid wrong counters, unmounted maps (previously promised as mounted) rules booklet full of misprints an errata. Anyone bought All Things Zombies first edition? Or Operation Garbo? Or... tell me.

I send good money, I demand good products. At least not faulty. Am I asking to much? It's me that should "chill out" or is someone else that should "wake up"?
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Scott Lewis
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Considering this is the not the first such thread you've popped in to whine and rant, it looks like you are making a big deal out of a relatively minor issue.

Based on you FFG microbadge, I would have thought you may be more tolerant of such things. I love FFGs games, but they do tend to be MUCH more errata-prone, yet often just as or more expensive.

Again, if you don't like the game, sell it. Maybe if Gottardo was not trying to help out, I might agree with you, but he has been extremely helpful trying to get things in order. I still don't know what else you want him to do; it certainly looks like he's trying to put things right to me. What else can he do?

Even with the minor issues the game has (and in my opinion, they ARE minor, certainly compared to some of those in FFGs great games), it is still fun and challenging to play, and for me at least it has been worth every penny and every second I've waited since I pre-ordered it last March.

So again, my comment stands: "Dude, chill out, he's doing what he can!"
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Andrea
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Considering this is the not the first such thread you've popped in to whine and rant, it looks like you are making a big deal out of a relatively minor issue.

Based on you FFG microbadge, I would have thought you may be more tolerant of such things. I love FFGs games, but they do tend to be MUCH more errata-prone, yet often just as or more expensive.

Again, if you don't like the game, sell it. Maybe if Gottardo was not trying to help out, I might agree with you, but he has been extremely helpful trying to get things in order. I still don't know what else you want him to do; it certainly looks like he's trying to put things right to me. What else can he do?

Even with the minor issues the game has (and in my opinion, they ARE minor, certainly compared to some of those in FFGs great games), it is still fun and challenging to play, and for me at least it has been worth every penny and every second I've waited since I pre-ordered it last March.

So again, my comment stands: "Dude, chill out, he's doing what he can!"


Dude, if you check throughly, in the future you will find many others threads where I rant and whine about this subject. So be prepared! Maybe to you this a "relatively minor issue". To me is not, so I will whine until I like to.

FFG wise, I complained more than once to them, and they, at least, replaced cards and whole games INSTANTLY. By the way, the fact FFG adopt same devilish LNL production philosophy doesn't make LNL any better. As I said this is a cancer to the industry.

The issue, dude, is not about me liking or not the game. By the way I like it (and it's not even my very copy). The point here is the game has been rushed out, need revision, need correction, didn't get any play-testing. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

And I'm sincerely glad you are enjoying your copy, but again, that means nothing to me. I can buy a great car, and even enjoy it, but I think I'm entitled to complain if parts of it are missing or spoiled. Should I cope with them? No I should not.

The problem here is not Gottardo himself. No one wants to crucifix him. And, again, doing everything he can to "put things right" is exactly what he MUST do, since he didn't do it at the proper time.
The problem here is a company that - like many other gaming companies - its not good at its job. And dudes like you that "ehi, who cares about issues! I can play it anyway in some way, stop whining you!" are one of the main reasons companies like FFG/LNL keeps selling faulty stuff for sounding money. And people takes it because "ehi, you can STILL play it!". What the point in removing issues if gamers are happy with them? Great service to the community you are doing!

So my comment stands. "Dude wake up!"
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Scott Lewis
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Well, if you get your jollies from unconstructive whining and ranting, more power to you. Seems like you should find a different hobby to me.
 
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Andrea
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Well, if you get your jollies from unconstructive whining and ranting, more power to you. Seems like you should find a different hobby to me.


Well, if you get your jollies in telling people their opinions are a nonconstructive whining and ranting , more power to you.
And, of course, I'm not even slightly interested in what you think I should do.
 
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Mike Bourgeois
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it's wrong to direct your tirades at the Designer you know... he isn't the cause of this problem.

Did you actually buy the game... it doesn't sound like it (could be wrong but you make it sound like you're considering Space Infantry aa a dodged bullet.) If you did then you have a right to k'vetch at the publisher... ask them to pick up the slack. If you didn't then it's kinda wrong of you to take potshots at anyone... buying the product does give you at least some semblance of the right to bitch and moan when there are problems with the games quality. Don't beef at the designer... it's not really like they get to tell the publisher how it's going to run... not unless the publisher is like their mom or kid.

 
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Andrea
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mbourgeois wrote:
it's wrong to direct your tirades at the Designer you know... he isn't the cause of this problem.

Did you actually buy the game... it doesn't sound like it (could be wrong but you make it sound like you're considering Space Infantry aa a dodged bullet.) If you did then you have a right to k'vetch at the publisher... ask them to pick up the slack. If you didn't then it's kinda wrong of you to take potshots at anyone... buying the product does give you at least some semblance of the right to bitch and moan when there are problems with the games quality. Don't beef at the designer... it's not really like they get to tell the publisher how it's going to run... not unless the publisher is like their mom or kid.



You are from Canada, right? So you should be able to read english. I'm asking this because, as you can guess by my writing, english is not my first language and many times I find difficult to express what I'm really thinking.
But if you read at least one of my previous posts, you probably run into something like "The problem here is not Gottardo himself. No one wants to crucifix him". What is exactly you didn't understand in that clause?
Then another one reads "The problem here is a company that - like many other gaming companies - it's not good at its job". Who do you think I'm referring to with the word "company"? Gottardo's Inc.?
Come on! I understand your eager to post something, but, I mean, at least read what you are going to comment!

By the way I don't need a particular "right" to blame a company that shipped a faulty game. I don't need to be the one robbed to shout "thief!". You have a very odd way of thinking, if I may.
Anyway, I played with someone else copy: a friends of mine bought this game, and played it with me. Is him close enough to me in order to give me the right to complain about a game I played and he payed?
I see you are game designer too, but try to be neutral. :-) I would like to point out that, while I don't beef at the designer, I think he is at least responsible for the rules he wrote down, and how the game plays... Or was he just passing by while LNL printed the game?
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The Quote
"I played with someone else copy: a friends of mine bought this game, and played it with me. Is him close enough to me in order to give me the right to complain about a game I played and he payed?"

What I want

Please tell us more about the specifics. I am way more interested in the experience that you and your friend had than a rant. Heck, I might even sympathise.


Background:
Yes, I bought the game. Yes, I am waiting for the game.

I am still looking forward to playing it helped along with the information I receive on this site.





 
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raoul76 wrote:
The Quote
"I played with someone else copy: a friends of mine bought this game, and played it with me. Is him close enough to me in order to give me the right to complain about a game I played and he payed?"

What I want

Please tell us more about the specifics. I am way more interested in the experience that you and your friend had than a rant. Heck, I might even sympathise.


Background:
Yes, I bought the game. Yes, I am waiting for the game.

I am still looking forward to playing it helped along with the information I receive on this site.



The Answer

Raoul, no need for sympathy here. But the answer to your question is quite easy and fast. The game in itself is well conceived and engaging. The problem is the implementation. We spent most of the time "guessing through the rules". It seems like the one who wrote the booklet knew the game so well that he didn't feel the urge to explain it. One good third of the rules are ambiguous, you can't play by them, you have to guess what the designer had in mind. Sometimes you can manage it, using common sense, but many times, well, you have to made it up. Examples of play are (I think) misleading and actually managed to make things even more difficult for us. In my opinion the rules need a rewrite. There is no doubt that down there is a good game (expandable, moddable, modular...) but part of the rules is too unclear. That means you can still play but you don't know if you are playing the way you should, or you are just inventing a different game. It's difficult to understand if your exploiting the tactical depth of the game or simply... cheating. We decided to put it aside, waiting for new rules. Or a full explanation of some sort.
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Io has a good point about LnLP's inconsistent production values, and I have voiced similar complaints (and reduced my purchases from them as a result) in the past. So I do understand where he is coming from.

I also agree with Io that SI is well conceived and engaging. Frankly, I'm having a blast with it even though I realize it could have/should have been developed better. However sad but true, that could be said about a lot of games (both past and present).

For me, the clever design and fun factor of SI far outweighs the issues that have cropped up. I have a plethora of games that sit on the shelf unplayed, and yet I feel like I've already received my money's worth from SI... and I still have so much more of the game to explore.

Zak's support as designer has been outstanding, and in the end I remain confident that SI will be eventually become a gem - indeed, I consider it so already.
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Martin Plourde
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It become clear that the first customers are now.considered playtesters. I don't have a problem with it; as long as we recieve the correction in a proffessionnal manner, like real counters an rulebook. Like of the guy said, this no print'n'play game anymore. Hats off to. Gotardo, he gives great support, and it is appreciated.
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John Hogan
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Guys,

Here is my take. Please note that I have been a BBG member for a while and have almost no posts. Read as..."NO RANTS NO RAVES"

I own a small company in the States and have 9 employees on payroll. I hire the best and brightest, pay accordingly, and consider myself the gold standard in my field.

There is a saying, "The two most over rated things in life are; owning your own business and natural child birth....If that does not resonate, go talk to your wife or Mother.

I work far too hard to waste my valuable free time, and/or give my money to someone that cares little about me as a customer.

The money aspect is a matter of principle. I am fortunate that $30-$40 US does not even slightly effect me or my family. I am a dyed in the wool agnostic, but I have been blessed.

I have earned this blessing by treating people with respect and most importantly, as I myself want to be treated.

Please do not engage in "Public Outrage" with regards to my opinion. If I treated my Customers with the level of indifference that Lock and Load has treated me and most others, I would be out of business.

I was burned with "All Things Zombie". The specifics are irrelevant. I will PM anyone that would want to hear the details.

Somewhere......a great game lurks beneath the hairy warts of "Space Infantry", however it is untested, vague/unclear and requires far too much effort for me dedicate my attention and time to this Beta version.

Perhaps Mark will learn that his customers deserve a beter effort on his behalf. Track record indicates that he will not.

Sorry for the mispellings as my computer crashed and I have yet to load "Word" on this machine.

My thoughts

John Hogan
www.hoganandherr.com

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Javelin wrote:
Guys,

Here is my take. Please note that I have been a BBG member for a while and have almost no posts. Read as..."NO RANTS NO RAVES"

I own a small company in the States and have 9 employees on payroll. I hire the best and brightest, pay accordingly, and consider myself the gold standard in my field.

There is a saying, "The two most over rated things in life are; owning your own business and natural child birth....If that does not resonate, go talk to your wife or Mother.

I work far too hard to waste my valuable free time, and/or give my money to someone that cares little about me as a customer.

The money aspect is a matter of principle. I am fortunate that $30-$40 US does not even slightly effect me or my family. I am a dyed in the wool agnostic, but I have been blessed.

I have earned this blessing by treating people with respect and most importantly, as I myself want to be treated.

Please do not engage in "Public Outrage" with regards to my opinion. If I treated my Customers with the level of indifference that Lock and Load has treated me and most others, I would be out of business.

I was burned with "All Things Zombie". The specifics are irrelevant. I will PM anyone that would want to hear the details.

Somewhere......a great game lurks beneath the hairy warts of "Space Infantry", however it is untested, vague/unclear and requires far too much effort for me dedicate my attention and time to this Beta version.

Perhaps Mark will learn that his customers deserve a beter effort on his behalf. Track record indicates that he will not.

Sorry for the mispellings as my computer crashed and I have yet to load "Word" on this machine.

My thoughts

John Hogan
www.hoganandherr.com



Uh Oh!
So I'm not alone on this side of the Moon!
So, someone else bought a copy of All Things Zombie! gulp
So someone else thinks Space Infantry "requires far too much effort for me to dedicate my attention and time to this Beta version" whistle
So, someone else demand some respect as a customer! arrrh

That should mean I'm a ranter and a whiner, but I'm not crazy! There is hope after all!laugh

[a voice in the distance]... "Ehi dude John Hogan, chill out!" devil
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I always considered critics, when posted with a positive attitude, as a very strong signal of something that need an immeditate effort. Clearly i can't agree with everyone's view on the game, and i will only consider the perimeter of my game, leaving any other discussion with LnL to other forums, but i can see the points around your posts.

Since most of the complaint are about the fact that the game rules are nor clear enoug ("vague") or sometimes wrong, in essence because of my errors on the document, i've started focusing on this topic, slowing the development of the other game components i planned for the game (online tools, additional Units). My commitment is to
* release the consolidated clarifications and main errata next week
* have a PDF of the revised rules ready before June the 20th.

I'm sure that this PDF will have others area to be clarified but again, i will keep it updated on a very short time. I don't want to discuss on the fact that this the *minimum* that i must do: it's surely the best that i can do. If a rule is not clear enough just let me know it and i will try to improve the rules for everyone else.

Luckly, at the moment the only component of the game with an error is the Alert 3 counter: i've posted the fixed images some days ago on the BGG forum and i hope that this will make possible to fully enjoy the game.

Zak
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zak965 wrote:
I always considered critics, when posted with a positive attitude, as a very strong signal of something that need an immeditate effort. Clearly i can't agree with everyone's view on the game, and i will only consider the perimeter of my game, leaving any other discussion with LnL to other forums, but i can see the points around your posts.

Since most of the complaint are about the fact that the game rules are nor clear enoug ("vague") or sometimes wrong, in essence because of my errors on the document, i've started focusing on this topic, slowing the development of the other game components i planned for the game (online tools, additional Units). My commitment is to
* release the consolidated clarifications and main errata next week
* have a PDF of the revised rules ready before June the 20th.

I'm sure that this PDF will have others area to be clarified but again, i will keep it updated on a very short time. I don't want to discuss on the fact that this the *minimum* that i must do: it's surely the best that i can do. If a rule is not clear enough just let me know it and i will try to improve the rules for everyone else.

Luckly, at the moment the only component of the game with an error is the Alert 3 counter: i've posted the fixed images some days ago on the BGG forum and i hope that this will make possible to fully enjoy the game.

Zak


We all appreciate. Do you think it's possible to get a correct Alert 3 counter from LNL?
 
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Gottardo Zancani
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Quote:
Do you think it's possible to get a correct Alert 3 counter from LNL?

I will ask Mark about it and let you know if there are options to get one replacement on a short time.
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John Hogan
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Gottardo,

I in no way hold you accountable for the condition of the rulebook. In fact, I applaud your dedication to the community as has been demonstrated by your efforts to answer any and all questions that have been lobbed your way.

I am truly sorry if my original post, which started this thread, appeared to place any of the blame on your shoulders. That was not my intention.

You have created a gem. Perhaps it is a bit on the "Rough Cut" side at the moment, but there is an absolute jewel lurking beneath a few jagged edges.

I am pretty certain that any and all gamers that read these 23+ posts realize that it is impossible for an individual to edit, play test and comment on potential ambiguities that they themselves have written within a rule book. This is why companies "play test" games and hire proof readers and editors.

We all know that there is no perfect sentence/idea that will be understood by ALL readers in the exact same way. There will always be addendums and errata. You are the designer and the artist. The publisher, in my opinion is the responsible party that must assure quality.

Quality is a unique word. Perhaps quality, or lack there of, refers to game boards that are mailed to customers for a particular game that were admittedly defective......and, in time and with a fair amount customer pressure, subsequently replaced.

Quality also might imply that the publisher is responsible for insureing that YOUR message will be successfully conveyed to the majority of HIS customers.

You should be very proud of your work. It is in my opinion innovative and thoroughly immersive. You sir, have done your job and I am sure that we will all be enjoying the game in a few short months. What was your objective???? I would like to make an educated guess.

I am a 46 six year old "Kid" that still believes in the magic that can be sandwiched between the front and rear covers of a game manual. I want to play games in order to be whisked away from the thoughts and responsibilities of the real world. This why we watch movies, read books etc.

Perhaps this is why we call our jobs "WORK" and that we "PLAY" games.

I want to play. but when play becomes work.........Now, that is when I get annoyed.

I would bet that this is part of the reason that you spent countless hours creating "Space Infantry". You did not write the game to become rich or to replace your normal method of earning a living.

You got to make a little cash, exercise your creativity and be "Santa" to us 46 year old Kids. Thank you!

I for one will THROW money at a person or a company that remembers what it is that I am looking to purchase. I want escape, if only momentarily, into another time and place. This, as I have mentioned, is akin to reading a good book or being drawn into a good movie.

I looked forward, with cautious skepticism, to the release of "Space Infantry".

I mean I was actually excited when I got the email from LNL that "SI" had shipped.

I read the rules several times, read and reread sections that were very much open to interpretation and then I set the game aside.

"SI" was to much "Work"..

Please do not get preachy about a crappy market in defence of an unfinished product. LNL has made a choice to be a game publisher.

As a Publishers LNL might be best served by remembering what it is that they are selling. Are they simply colorful cardboard vendors? Stupid rhetorical question I know.....

I have noticed a very "strange" corelation between financial success and understanding your target market. I must assume that I at least represent a portion of the buying public. So here is what I want in trade for my money and more importantly my time.

I want to have that child like wonder, if only for a brief moment, deciding what I will do with my squad of soldiers to best advance the storyline.

Somehow this gets lost while you page through countless rule sections, making guesses, interpretaions...blah blah blah......

Suddenly and saddly, I am back to work.



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