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Defenders of the Realm: The Dragon Expansion» Forums » General

Subject: Mix and Match Generals rendered obsolete by components! rss

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Kamma
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I tried starting scenario 2 today and when mixing some old darkness spread cards with some new ones I noticed that the new ones are thinner and bigger in size than the original ones. When I tried shuffling the deck, the new ones all grouped together, thus rendering it obsolete without sleeves....this really sucks as I was looking forward to playing it but now can't. This has ruined most of the expansion in my opinion and not worth the money since they couldn't get it right
 
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I have sleeved all my cards with FFG's 'Grey size' sleeves as we play Defenders ALOT. Since the sleeves are thick, it renders the difference in thickness between cards negligible.

I also remember Eagle Games explaining why the change in cards. I don't remember the exact reason, but I think it was that the cardstock used for the first game was unavailable from their printer and so they went with a better quality core, rather than thickness. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). It was a genuine explanation.

I think if you sleeve the cards it will fix your problem and allow you to protect your cards at the same time.

Cheers,
Ben.
 
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Boromir_and_Kermit wrote:
I have sleeved all my cards with FFG's 'Grey size' sleeves as we play Defenders ALOT. Since the sleeves are thick, it renders the difference in thickness between cards negligible.

I also remember Eagle Games explaining why the change in cards. I don't remember the exact reason, but I think it was that the cardstock used for the first game was unavailable from their printer and so they went with a better quality core, rather than thickness. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). It was a genuine explanation.

I think if you sleeve the cards it will fix your problem and allow you to protect your cards at the same time.

Cheers,
Ben.


It's still a bit disappointing that i HAVE to sleeve them in order to play it though...angry

on another note though devil, are those sleeves you use clear ones? and what size are they? are there other ones I could get? and any sites that don't have shipping that costs like 10....i'd rather pay something like 3 or 4 for shipping with regard to sleeves. any recommendations would be appreciated
 
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You don't HAVE to sleeve - I don't. Here are the previous threads discussing the expansion cards:

Is it just me, or are these new cards thinner?
Card size and thickness
Hero Card Size
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Kamma
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Sphere wrote:
You don't HAVE to sleeve - I don't. Here are the previous threads discussing the expansion cards:

Is it just me, or are these new cards thinner?
Card size and thickness
Hero Card Size


and how would one not have to sleeve?it's impossible to shuffle them as is
 
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devaloki wrote:
and how would one not have to sleeve?it's impossible to shuffle them as is

Cool - so I'm doing something impossible when I shuffle them? I guess I have magical powers. cool
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Kamma
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Sphere wrote:
devaloki wrote:
and how would one not have to sleeve?it's impossible to shuffle them as is

Cool - so I'm doing something impossible when I shuffle them? I guess I have magical powers. cool


you must be doing so venerable sage! because the cards i have are much bigger than the old ones and wheni shuffle they all group together in one pile. it's not a minor size difference liek between the ghost stories base game and white moon expansion cards...
 
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Sphere wrote:
devaloki wrote:
and how would one not have to sleeve?it's impossible to shuffle them as is

Cool - so I'm doing something impossible when I shuffle them? I guess I have magical powers. cool


Magical affinity aside, there seems to be two separate problems here: the THICKNESS of the cards and the DIMENSIONS of the cards.

The thickness of the cards shouldn't cause any problems while shuffling.

The dimensions of the cards do cause problems while shuffling. The dimensions can be wrong in either the base set or the expansion (I've seen the problem come up in both with other games.) Usually, the cutter is off by 1mm causing one of the sets of cards to be too big or too small and resulting in all of the smaller cards staying grouped together while shuffling. This can only be fixed by sleeving the cards which can cause other problems in a 100+ card stack.

Since most cards are wrapped in celophane, it's difficult, probably impossible, to get a correct set from the publisher because 1mm difference is apparently impossible to detect in celophane wrapped cards.

Anyway, congratulations on receiving a perfectly cut set of cards or your growing aptitude in the world of prestidigitation, whichever applies.

Robert
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robertg611 wrote:
Magical affinity aside, there seems to be two separate problems here: the THICKNESS of the cards and the DIMENSIONS of the cards.

The thickness of the cards shouldn't cause any problems while shuffling.

The dimensions of the cards do cause problems while shuffling. The dimensions can be wrong in either the base set or the expansion (I've seen the problem come up in both with other games.) Usually, the cutter is off by 1mm causing one of the sets of cards to be too big or too small and resulting in all of the smaller cards staying grouped together while shuffling. This can only be fixed by sleeving the cards which can cause other problems in a 100+ card stack.

Since most cards are wrapped in celophane, it's difficult, probably impossible, to get a correct set from the publisher because 1mm difference is apparently impossible to detect in celophane wrapped cards.

Anyway, congratulations on receiving a perfectly cut set of cards or your growing aptitude in the world of prestidigitation, whichever applies.

Robert

You sound pretty snippy about the whole thing, Robert. Does my saying that I can shuffle without sleeves make you angry for some reason?

I don't claim that their is zero difference in size, or that shuffling doesn't require a bit of extra attention. Even before the expansion arrived, I was taking care to supplement regular shuffling with dealing into piles of 5 or 7 for the base game, because distribution is very important in this game.

My experience, whether it meets your approval or not, is that the slight difference is manageable. I don't use sleeves, period. For those who would like to see the difference, I've just snapped a picture. It's tricky to show such a slight difference, especially with cards that have some curve. After a couple of failed attempts, I stood the box lid on end, and stood two cards from each set up inside. Here's what the camera shows:

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GodRob
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I don't think I meant to be snippy but I'm definitely not angry at you. I thought the magic mentioned in your post would be a fun theme to play off of and went with it, no harm intended.

Based on your lack of problems shuffling, I was assuming that you had properly cut cards and was pointing out that you may not be experiencing the same difficulties that the OP was facing.

I don't use sleeves either and would gladly like to find a way to quickly shuffle cards of different sizes so I can enjoy my games that have this problem to their fullest.

I'm a ruffle shuffler and inventing new ways to shuffle my Castle Ravenloft deck with those ten oversized cards would make it enjoyable.

Shadows of Margath (expansion to Runebound) is more of a problem. The many decks of cards in the game seem to require a lot of shuffling and completely ruins the replayability of the game for me. The expansion cards are smaller than the base game and they tend to group together no matter what I try.

Robert
 
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robertg611 wrote:
I don't think I meant to be snippy but I'm definitely not angry at you. I thought the magic mentioned in your post would be a fun theme to play off of and went with it, no harm intended.

OK, we're good. The 'magic' was my lame attempt at humor, since I was hearing that what I was doing was impossible.
 
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Sphere wrote:
robertg611 wrote:
Magical affinity aside, there seems to be two separate problems here: the THICKNESS of the cards and the DIMENSIONS of the cards.

The thickness of the cards shouldn't cause any problems while shuffling.

The dimensions of the cards do cause problems while shuffling. The dimensions can be wrong in either the base set or the expansion (I've seen the problem come up in both with other games.) Usually, the cutter is off by 1mm causing one of the sets of cards to be too big or too small and resulting in all of the smaller cards staying grouped together while shuffling. This can only be fixed by sleeving the cards which can cause other problems in a 100+ card stack.

Since most cards are wrapped in celophane, it's difficult, probably impossible, to get a correct set from the publisher because 1mm difference is apparently impossible to detect in celophane wrapped cards.

Anyway, congratulations on receiving a perfectly cut set of cards or your growing aptitude in the world of prestidigitation, whichever applies.

Robert

You sound pretty snippy about the whole thing, Robert. Does my saying that I can shuffle without sleeves make you angry for some reason?

I don't claim that their is zero difference in size, or that shuffling doesn't require a bit of extra attention. Even before the expansion arrived, I was taking care to supplement regular shuffling with dealing into piles of 5 or 7 for the base game, because distribution is very important in this game.

My experience, whether it meets your approval or not, is that the slight difference is manageable. I don't use sleeves, period. For those who would like to see the difference, I've just snapped a picture. It's tricky to show such a slight difference, especially with cards that have some curve. After a couple of failed attempts, I stood the box lid on end, and stood two cards from each set up inside. Here's what the camera shows:



it's the darkness spreads cards that are the problem not the hero cards. you don't need to measure them even, just look at the border , it shows the extreme size difference
 
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devaloki wrote:
it's the darkness spreads cards that are the problem not the hero cards. you don't need to measure them even, just look at the border , it shows the extreme size difference

I'm tired of this. I told you (twice) that I could shuffle my cards, and you replied (twice) that it's impossible to do so. So I took a picture to make it clear that my cards have a very small difference in size, and you assumed I'm too dim to take a picture of the deck that has the problem.

I selected Hero Cards for that picture because the size disparity in the Hero Cards, though small, is greater than the size disparity in my Darkness Spreads cards. I have zero problem shuffling the Darkness Spreads decks.

Here are two more images, Darkness Spreads cards from front and back. You're right that the printed border is different on the front, although that has no impact on game play. You can't tell which is which from the back:



I'm done. If you want a video of me shuffling, you're S.O.L.
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Sphere wrote:
OK, we're good. The 'magic' was my lame attempt at humor, since I was hearing that what I was doing was impossible.


I think what you're hearing is that your cards are cut differently from his cards. That wouldn't surprise me.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think what you're hearing is that your cards are cut differently from his cards. That wouldn't surprise me.

It seems an obvious possiblilty, and wouldn't surprise me either, but what I've been hearing is that I'm wrong, and that my claims are impossible.
 
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Sphere wrote:
It seems an obvious possiblilty, and wouldn't surprise me either, but what I've been hearing is that I'm wrong, and that my claims are impossible.


You said, "You don't HAVE to sleeve - I don't," which seemed to dismiss the possibility that he has an actual problem that you don't. Just because your cards are cut properly (or close enough), that doesn't mean that his are.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
You said, "You don't HAVE to sleeve - I don't," which seemed to dismiss the possibility that he has an actual problem that you don't. Just because your cards are cut properly (or close enough), that doesn't mean that his are.

And when I made it clear that I shuffle my cards, he dismissed my claim as impossible. I've provided pictures; he hasn't. Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to simply contact customer service at Eagle Games, rather than assume that every deck in the world is like his, and start a chicken little thread here?

That's a rhetorical question, David; you needn't answer. This thread was irritating enough for me already, and your appearance is the cherry on top. If you have the dragon expansion, tell us about your cards. Otherwise, I don't see what you can contribute.
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Sphere wrote:
Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to simply contact customer service at Eagle Games, rather than assume that every deck in the world is like his, and start a chicken little thread here?


I think it makes sense for him to be interested in finding out what experience other customers are having. That's what this site is good for.

I agree you both have been talking past each other. The people who have made the reasonable point that you could have different components have been ignored by both sides.
 
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Thank you Mother Theresa. If you get bad components in your next GMT game, will you start by contact them, or will you start by posting a thread here saying the game is ruined?
 
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Sphere wrote:
devaloki wrote:
it's the darkness spreads cards that are the problem not the hero cards. you don't need to measure them even, just look at the border , it shows the extreme size difference

I'm tired of this. I told you (twice) that I could shuffle my cards, and you replied (twice) that it's impossible to do so. So I took a picture to make it clear that my cards have a very small difference in size, and you assumed I'm too dim to take a picture of the deck that has the problem.

I selected Hero Cards for that picture because the size disparity in the Hero Cards, though small, is greater than the size disparity in my Darkness Spreads cards. I have zero problem shuffling the Darkness Spreads decks.

Here are two more images, Darkness Spreads cards from front and back. You're right that the printed border is different on the front, although that has no impact on game play. You can't tell which is which from the back:



I'm done. If you want a video of me shuffling, you're S.O.L.


look at the borders of the darkness spreads cards. the new ones are smaller than the old ones. they are too stiff and it's impossible to shuffle them. i'm still sticking by my stuff
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Sphere wrote:
It seems an obvious possiblilty, and wouldn't surprise me either, but what I've been hearing is that I'm wrong, and that my claims are impossible.


You said, "You don't HAVE to sleeve - I don't," which seemed to dismiss the possibility that he has an actual problem that you don't. Just because your cards are cut properly (or close enough), that doesn't mean that his are.

exactly
 
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Sphere wrote:
Thank you Mother Theresa. If you get bad components in your next GMT game, will you start by contact them, or will you start by posting a thread here saying the game is ruined?


the game is ruined for me and some others in that one regard
 
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devaloki wrote:
the game is ruined for me and some others in that one regard

Have you contacted Eagle Games to see whether perhaps you might get a better deck? If not, why not? In my first post, I provided you links to three previous threads. If you clicked on the first of those, it would have been difficult to miss Keith's post:

Gryphon Eagle wrote:
If the cards are posing a problem with gameplay, please let me know and I may ask for a sample from the problem deck so that I can check it against the stock I have. My apologies for any inconvenience.
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Sphere wrote:
devaloki wrote:
the game is ruined for me and some others in that one regard

Have you contacted Eagle Games to see whether perhaps you might get a better deck? If not, why not? In my first post, I provided you links to three previous threads. If you clicked on the first of those, it would have been difficult to miss Keith's post:

Gryphon Eagle wrote:
If the cards are posing a problem with gameplay, please let me know and I may ask for a sample from the problem deck so that I can check it against the stock I have. My apologies for any inconvenience.


i emailed them on my email address prior to making this post
 
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devaloki wrote:
i emailed them on my email address prior to making this post

And did you get an answer? If not, did you try calling them? How about sending a geekmail to Keith? As noted, I gave you a link at the start that led to his post. If you just want to bitch, carry on, but I've provided you photographic evidence that serviceable decks exist. I'm done here.
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