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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Rules

Subject: The Arborec: Building w/ your Ground Forces rss

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Dan
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Ah... this kinda raises a couple of questions. I'm sure answers are coming, but this is my interpretation.

I posted this up in strategy, but it needs to be posted here.

OrangeCat's Arborec Rules Questions.
"You may not build Ground Forces with your space docks."
- VERY clear. However, Mechs are NOT ground forces.

"Your Ground Forces have a build capacity of 1."
- Pretty clear. They have a build capacity of 1 per unit, and this does NOT pool, so GF and Fighters are not built economically until you research the Spore Acceleration tech. If you can pool, the tech becomes more or less a waste of money.

"You many not build units with Ground Forces that have moved during this same activation."
- Pretty clear. However, a Warfare action could clear a token, allowing you to move what you just built.

"At the start of the Status Phase, place 1 Ground Force on one planet you control."
VERY clear.

But a couple of questions...
#1 Can Arborec on the surface of a planet build ships into the space above them?
- Seems reasonable. They'd do it slower than a space dock. The question is: Are the Arborec kings of growing space ships to defend their planets, or kings of defending planets by building mechs, PDS and Space Docks on them FAST.

#2 Can Arborec GFs, as cargo on a ship (Remember, they start with the Stasis Capsule tech) build GFs, PDS or Mechs as long as there is room for them on ships or nearby planets.
- This seem FAIRLY reasonable. It's expensive at first, but why not?
- However, remember that the Duha Menaimon, the Arborec flagship, has a build capacity of 5 and a capacity of 5. If the above is true, then build capacity of 10?!?!

#3 Can Arborec GFs on ships build ships around themselves?
- This is either extremely exciting... or scrotum tighteningly scary, depending on what end of the stick you are on. I'm going to guess NO.
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Damo
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This sounds fantastic! I can't wait for my copy to arrive.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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Damjon wrote:


This sounds fantastic! I can't wait for my copy to arrive.
Yeah, the Slime Molds are pretty cool. But I can't tell if they are just "unique" or "GOD AWFULLY SCARY" at this point. whistle
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Jean Lannes
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OrangeCat X wrote:
#2 Can Arborec GFs, as cargo on a ship (Remember, they start with the Stasis Capsule tech) build GFs, PDS or Mechs as long as there is room for them on ships or nearby planets.

#3 Can Arborec GFs on ships build ships around themselves?


In my opinion the main rules for Production are still valid:

Think you have to treat the Aborec GFs like little space docks. Production should only be allowed on planet surfaces.
A production with Aborec GFs, on board of space ships should be impossible.

The Aborec flagshig remind me on the Saar Space Dock.
The Saar can fill up their carriers in space with GFs and PDS, too.

(update - thx to denmark)
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casper jorgensen
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Marechallannes wrote:
OrangeCat X wrote:
#2 Can Arborec GFs, as cargo on a ship (Remember, they start with the Stasis Capsule tech) build GFs, PDS or Mechs as long as there is room for them on ships or nearby planets.

#3 Can Arborec GFs on ships build ships around themselves?


In my opinion the main rules for Production are still valid:

Think you have to treat the Aborec GFs like little space docks. Production should only be allowed on planet surfaces.
A production with Aborec GFs, on board of space ships should be impossible.

The Aborec flagshig remind me on the Saar Space Dock.
The Saar can't fill up their carriers in space with GFs and PDS, too. They have to place the GFs, PDS (and mechs) on planet surfaces.


As a fact, the Saar can indeed build GFs directly into Carriers (so can anyone else, though it doesn't matter as much). It should be somewhere in the Shattered rulebook.
Whether they can build ships and/or ground units while being carried, I'm still undecided upon.
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Neil Parker
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OrangeCat X wrote:
Damjon wrote:


This sounds fantastic! I can't wait for my copy to arrive.
Yeah, the Slime Molds are pretty cool. But I can't tell if they are just "unique" or "GOD AWFULLY SCARY" at this point. whistle


The Arborec look the most interesting to me out of the three new races. I was pleased to see FFG create three new races that were more unique and off the wall rather than variations on a theme. Looking forward to getting a copy...
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aermet69 wrote:
As a fact, the Saar can indeed build GFs directly into Carriers (so can anyone else, though it doesn't matter as much). It should be somewhere in the Shattered rulebook.

Actually, the base game rules very specifically state that Ground Forces may only be placed on the planet that the Space Dock is attached to (page 26, column 3, paragraph 3). As you mentioned, the sole exception to this is Saar.
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Andrew
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Marechallannes wrote:
OrangeCat X wrote:
#2 Can Arborec GFs, as cargo on a ship (Remember, they start with the Stasis Capsule tech) build GFs, PDS or Mechs as long as there is room for them on ships or nearby planets.

#3 Can Arborec GFs on ships build ships around themselves?


In my opinion the main rules for Production are still valid:

Think you have to treat the Aborec GFs like little space docks. Production should only be allowed on planet surfaces.
A production with Aborec GFs, on board of space ships should be impossible.

The Aborec flagshig remind me on the Saar Space Dock.
The Saar can fill up their carriers in space with GFs and PDS, too.

(update - thx to denmark)


The Saar do not have to build units using their Space Docks on planets, why should the Arborec have to? That's only a rule because most races are incapable of doing otherwise.
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Jason Dunn
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wardac wrote:
Marechallannes wrote:
OrangeCat X wrote:
#2 Can Arborec GFs, as cargo on a ship (Remember, they start with the Stasis Capsule tech) build GFs, PDS or Mechs as long as there is room for them on ships or nearby planets.

#3 Can Arborec GFs on ships build ships around themselves?


In my opinion the main rules for Production are still valid:

Think you have to treat the Aborec GFs like little space docks. Production should only be allowed on planet surfaces.
A production with Aborec GFs, on board of space ships should be impossible.

The Aborec flagshig remind me on the Saar Space Dock.
The Saar can fill up their carriers in space with GFs and PDS, too.

(update - thx to denmark)


The Saar do not have to build units using their Space Docks on planets, why should the Arborec have to? That's only a rule because most races are incapable of doing otherwise.


Because the Saar card specifically dictates how their space docks work. The Arborec card doesn't direct us to alter any further rules, which leads me to believe they can only build whilst on a planet. Beyond that, common sense tells me that it functionally hurts the game if they can build while in space as they would be too similar and much more powerful than Saar.
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Jason Lee
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Isn't this discussion moot since the rules don't actually say anything about the Arborec build ability? It could function almost any way you desire as written right now.

Discussing what is most reasonable to play with is fine, and in fact necessary, as every group is going to need to come up with a functional house rule to play the Arborec.

But appealing to rules is useless until FFG releases errata or an FAQ that actually says how they work.
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Andrew
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ThaTsRight wrote:
Because the Saar card specifically dictates how their space docks work. The Arborec card doesn't direct us to alter any further rules, which leads me to believe they can only build whilst on a planet. Beyond that, common sense tells me that it functionally hurts the game if they can build while in space as they would be too similar and much more powerful than Saar.


But they are Ground Forces, not Space Docks. There are no rules for building at Ground Forces. And they are very different from the Saar.
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Marc Q
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At the risk of sounding silly: consider the fluff of the Arborec. They're plants: they grow new units from OTHER plants that they shape into units.

There ARE no other plants on their ships (yes, you could argue that the whole ship is a plant and therefore it could grow new plants... but think instead that it is ONE plant and the Arborec turn OTHER plants into theirs... if its already theirs, they can't do squat with it), and therefore they can only build on planets (with plants) units which then can go into space or stay on the planet itself.

At least, that's how I'd interpret it. But I realize that it's a hand-waving fluff argument.
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Joshua Armstrong
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Marx09 wrote:
At the risk of sounding silly: consider the fluff of the Arborec. They're plants: they grow new units from OTHER plants that they shape into units.

There ARE no other plants on their ships (yes, you could argue that the whole ship is a plant and therefore it could grow new plants... but think instead that it is ONE plant and the Arborec turn OTHER plants into theirs... if its already theirs, they can't do squat with it), and therefore they can only build on planets (with plants) units which then can go into space or stay on the planet itself.

At least, that's how I'd interpret it. But I realize that it's a hand-waving fluff argument.


Well...

If this doesn't convince anyone I don't know what will...
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Chris Holm
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OrangeCat X wrote:
Your Ground Forces have a build capacity of 1."


Maybe the idea is that if one planet has any number of Arborec GFs on it (that haven't moved this turn), then that planet produces as if it had a 1-capacity Space Dock? Regardless of the number of Arborec GF that are present, I mean
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Henri Harju
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islander wrote:
OrangeCat X wrote:
Your Ground Forces have a build capacity of 1."


Maybe the idea is that if one planet has any number of Arborec GFs on it (that haven't moved this turn), then that planet produces as if it had a 1-capacity Space Dock? Regardless of the number of Arborec GF that are present, I mean

No. Just no. You do realise how hard it would be for them to build ground forces if that were to be true... they'd be sitting ducks just waiting for annihilation.
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Lyn Fox
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If their GFs can build ships, then why do they even need space docks? Well... secret objectives I suppose. But otherwise it sounds like you probably do fine without space docks.
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JH
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Originally I had some different ideas than below, but having thought through it further, this is how I'll play it until a ruling says otherwise:

Your GFs can build anything (This is cut and dried. There is absolutely no indication anywhere that GFs can't build ships; the only restriction is on Space Docks building GFs.).
They can't pool their capacity; Spore Acceleration lets them get the usual 2-for-1 deal on GFs and Fighters.
They can't build while being transported, only on the ground.
They can be activated to build in the same round they move, but only if you manage to clear their system of its Command Counter.
They can't build using the Production Strategy Card's abilities or any other method that specifies a Space Dock.
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casper jorgensen
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Originally I had some different ideas than below, but having thought through it further, this is how I'll play it until a ruling says otherwise:

Your GFs can build anything (This is cut and dried. There is absolutely no indication anywhere that GFs can't build ships; the only restriction is on Space Docks building GFs.).
They can't pool their capacity; Spore Acceleration lets them get the usual 2-for-1 deal on GFs and Fighters.
They can't build while being transported, only on the ground.
They can be activated to build in the same round they move, but only if you manage to clear their system of its Command Counter.
They can't build using the Production Strategy Card's abilities or any other method that specifies a Space Dock.


Seems right about the same conclusions I have come to, and at least the same house ruling I will present.
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Ryan Caputo
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I figured the Arborec could build a GF with an GF and thats all, not sure about the whole ship building from a GF, doesnt seem right.
EDIT: until Arborec get their tech, still cost more, 1 per gf, since they cant pool. Your gfs (plural) has a build cap of 1, I think that means you can build 1 per group of gfs. So on each planet no matter how many you have you can add 1, until you get the race tech then it is 2.
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Henry Coleman
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Sarcasmorator wrote:

They can't build using the Production Strategy Card's abilities or any other method that specifies a Space Dock.


So they can't build with a tactical action which specifies space docks? ie they can't build at all?
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Andrew
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ryolacap wrote:
I figured the Arborec could build a GF with an GF and thats all, not sure about the whole ship building from a GF, doesnt seem right.
EDIT: until Arborec get their tech, still cost more, 1 per gf, since they cant pool. Your gfs (plural) has a build cap of 1, I think that means you can build 1 per group of gfs. So on each planet no matter how many you have you can add 1, until you get the race tech then it is 2.


That sounds like an awful ability. I don't know why you are interpreting it in the weakest possible way, but that would make the Arborec the single worst race in the game.
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Ryan Caputo
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wardac wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
I figured the Arborec could build a GF with an GF and thats all, not sure about the whole ship building from a GF, doesnt seem right.
EDIT: until Arborec get their tech, still cost more, 1 per gf, since they cant pool. Your gfs (plural) has a build cap of 1, I think that means you can build 1 per group of gfs. So on each planet no matter how many you have you can add 1, until you get the race tech then it is 2.


That sounds like an awful ability. I don't know why you are interpreting it in the weakest possible way, but that would make the Arborec the single worst race in the game.


I don't know, not having to bring GFs from planets that have space docks would allow you to spread pretty fast. Multi planet areas could build on each planet, it would give you a objective to get some multi planet systems. 3 planets 6 GFs. You get the free one and you dont have to use strategic counters like SOL but instead pool them in the command. Allowing each to build would end up with too many GFs (do to compounding) and does not seem logical. Plus you dont waste space dock build capacity on GFs, allowing to just build ships. Seems like a pretty good ability to me.
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Ryan Caputo
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boxjuggler wrote:
Sarcasmorator wrote:

They can't build using the Production Strategy Card's abilities or any other method that specifies a Space Dock.


So they can't build with a tactical action which specifies space docks? ie they can't build at all?


They build ships that way, just not GFs. GFs are grown.
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aermet69 wrote:

Your GFs can build anything (This is cut and dried. There is absolutely no indication anywhere that GFs can't build ships; the only restriction is on Space Docks building GFs.).


The only problem I have with this is I see no indication they have plant ships, in fact the contrary.

Also the way the wording indicates on the tech card leads me to believe they only build GFs

"Increase the build capacity of your ground forces by 1"

as opposed to

"Your ground forces build capacity is increased by 1"
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Andrew
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ryolacap wrote:
wardac wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
I figured the Arborec could build a GF with an GF and thats all, not sure about the whole ship building from a GF, doesnt seem right.
EDIT: until Arborec get their tech, still cost more, 1 per gf, since they cant pool. Your gfs (plural) has a build cap of 1, I think that means you can build 1 per group of gfs. So on each planet no matter how many you have you can add 1, until you get the race tech then it is 2.


That sounds like an awful ability. I don't know why you are interpreting it in the weakest possible way, but that would make the Arborec the single worst race in the game.


I don't know, not having to bring GFs from planets that have space docks would allow you to spread pretty fast. Multi planet areas could build on each planet, it would give you a objective to get some multi planet systems. 3 planets 6 GFs. You get the free one and you dont have to use strategic counters like SOL but instead pool them in the command. Allowing each to build would end up with too many GFs (do to compounding) and does not seem logical. Plus you dont waste space dock build capacity on GFs, allowing to just build ships. Seems like a pretty good ability to me.


Except by default their GFs cost 1 instead of 1/2 and they can't build with them after moving. No, that would be an awful ability.

And really you are basing all of this off of what you want it to be, not anything in the rulebook. Nowhere does it say that they cannot build ships with their GFs.
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