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Subject: What is the worst enemy? rss

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Mike Norris
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Just curies what everyone thinks is best to worst enemies to deal with. Here is my lest starting with the one I dread the most to the one that can move all they way:

Worst: Loki: Ever since my first game I have grown to hate the giants. Sure Fenrir can steal turns, but giants can do the same and cause you to cough up viking and elves in the process, that is if they don't close down those areas first. My first game I negelected the giants, until 2 were out and Loki moved again past the door of Vahalla. Ugh...

2nd Worst: Fenrir: Every time a Fenrir card is pulled, then time to rethink my whole turn because I am bound to have at least one move cut short, making it harder to push someone back. Like Loki now I focus on keeping fenrir as far left as possible.

3rd Worst: Nidhogg: When I first read the rules Nidhogg doesn't sound that bad, but then after playing it and discovering that one flip of the card can easily bring and unexpected loss. That stinks!

4th Worst: Jormundgang: I am not bothered by J all that much. Sure moving the Valks back can be annoying if I am all the way on the black island, but I guess I still find it managable. And with Frigg's power then getting vikings isn't so bad.

Getting better: Surt: I think what makes Surts power not so bad is the % chance that it might affect you at that moment. If the bag you are pulling from isn't rolled, meh...not too worried.

Best: Hel: I think they forgot a "p" at the end of her name...lol. Hel move as far as you want. So let me get this right, she takes from a random bag and adds it to a spot where you can then redistribute back into the bag of your choice on your turn? Sounds like a win to me. Time for some island managing.

But that is just my take. What about all of you?
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Kostas K.
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I would move Loki below Jormundgand, as battling giants is something I tend to do anyway (especially with Thor). He only becomes dangerous later in the game, because revealing 2 or 3 giants simultaneously can lead to some pretty nasty combos.
Otherwise I completely agree with your evaluation.
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Jan
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Loki can become pretty annoying so after Jormundgang I woudn't put him. I hate Fenrir the most and second place goes to Nidhogg and then Loki.
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Sean M
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Fenrir is just miserable, and Nidhogg can be shockingly bad to pull, so I would rate those as #1 and #2. Loki can be very bad if allowed to stay beyond the wall, but the defeated giants lead to the greatest powers in the game, so I tend to milk Loki for the giants.

Good thread, this made me think about *why* I fiercely beat back some and let others creep along in their invasion.
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Andrew MacLeod
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Barad_the_dwarf wrote:
Loki can become pretty annoying so after Jormundgang I woudn't put him. I hate Fenrir the most and second place goes to Nidhogg and then Loki.


I, too, would put Fenrir as Enemy #1. Unless your name is Frey (and then only rarely), can you ever "afford" to waste actions. And Fenrir's puppy chow is actions.
As for #2, I'm torn between Loki and the Nidhogg. When it comes right down to it, I suppose the Nidhogg is worse: "Well, the Nidhogg is bad, he should be my top priority." But there's really nothing you can do to effectively combat his power: whether he's still in the starting block or whether he's knocking at Odin's door, his nightmarish effect is always the same. Hmmm: perhaps he should be Enemy #1, then?
Surt is definitely #4 for me. Fire giants are never good.
I'm pretty much of a common mind with Mike Norris about the Jormungand and Hel, Hel is kinda like the enemy who was dealt the traitor card: she almost does as much good for you as bad.
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Jeremy Lennert
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Actually, the thing that you can do to mitigate Niddhogg's power is to let him advance, all the way into Odin's Residence (where enemy powers don't activate at all), and just be ready to immediately kick him back out. If you're playing on standard difficulty, you only need to kick him back once, so keeping the Vanir track ready on spot 5 (or just a ton of vikings in reserve) will let you do it easily without even building his weapons.

I call this strategy "Baiting the Snake". Or "snakes", since the other serpent also has a location-invariant power and you can survive with 2 enemies in Valhalla, though negating Jormungand's power is much less impressive. Think of it as luring them into a trap.

On higher difficulties, you can potentially do this several times...if you have the resources to fight him in Odin's Residence several times!
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Andrew MacLeod
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Antistone wrote:
Actually, the thing that you can do to mitigate Niddhogg's power is to let him advance, all the way into Odin's Residence (where enemy powers don't activate at all), and just be ready to immediately kick him back out. If you're playing on standard difficulty, you only need to kick him back once, so keeping the Vanir track ready on spot 5 (or just a ton of vikings in reserve) will let you do it easily without even building his weapons.

I call this strategy "Baiting the Snake". Or "snakes", since the other serpent also has a location-invariant power and you can survive with 2 enemies in Valhalla, though negating Jormungand's power is much less impressive. Think of it as luring them into a trap.

On higher difficulties, you can potentially do this several times...if you have the resources to fight him in Odin's Residence several times!


What you're proposing, Antistone, doesn't mitigate the Nidhogg's power at all: rather, it's just recognizing that fighting the Nidhogg is not absolutely necessary. His effect, however, is unchanged: he still draws another enemy forward (nothing mitigated). The only slight change is that by letting him run all the way to Odin's hall, there will be one less enemy that he will pull forward with him, which is not much of a mitigation. As for keeping the Vanir track ready on Spot Five, that's (often) a tad optimistic that you'll be able to spare the actions to get that far in Vanaheim. Keeping a ton of Vikings in reserve is also optimistic: instead, I would recommend a ton of elves, if there are at least three gods in the gamewhistle.
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Sean M
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amacleod wrote:
...instead, I would recommend a ton of elves, if there are at least three gods in the gamewhistle.


You and your elves Andrew... I bet you only play green decks in Magic too!

(just to be clear, I am kidding... I have great respect for the blue, slightly disturbing-looking creatures in this game)
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Andrew MacLeod
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Grondhammar wrote:
amacleod wrote:
...instead, I would recommend a ton of elves, if there are at least three gods in the gamewhistle.


You and your elves Andrew... I bet you only play green decks in Magic too!

(just to be clear, I am kidding... I have great respect for the blue, slightly disturbing-looking creatures in this game)


Truth be told, I've never played Magic. However, I am from a part of Canada where the inhabitants are commonly referred to as BLUEnosers...and many would say that I am slightly disturbed.
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Jeremy Lennert
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amacleod wrote:
His effect, however, is unchanged: he still draws another enemy forward (nothing mitigated). The only slight change is that by letting him run all the way to Odin's hall, there will be one less enemy that he will pull forward with him, which is not much of a mitigation.

There is a rather substantive qualitative difference between "small" and "nothing".

And I don't think stopping 1 out of 7 is exactly negligible, but I just won a game with 6 angry enemies and 3 ragnarok cards, so I'm more interested in the fact that you can plausibly negate 3+ advances with this trick on higher difficulties.
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Andrew MacLeod
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Antistone wrote:
amacleod wrote:
His effect, however, is unchanged: he still draws another enemy forward (nothing mitigated). The only slight change is that by letting him run all the way to Odin's hall, there will be one less enemy that he will pull forward with him, which is not much of a mitigation.

There is a rather substantive qualitative difference between "small" and "nothing".

And I don't think stopping 1 out of 7 is exactly negligible, but I just won a game with 6 angry enemies and 3 ragnarok cards, so I'm more interested in the fact that you can plausibly negate 3+ advances with this trick on higher difficulties.


There may be a substantial qualitative difference between "small" and "nothing". But allow me to quote from my original post re the Nidhogg:
Quote:
...there's really nothing you can do to effectively combat his power: whether he's still in the starting block or whether he's knocking at Odin's door, his nightmarish effect is always the same.

In terms of his effect, nothing can be done to prevent that effect from happening. Every time a Nidhogg card is drawn, the Nidhogg will drag another enemy with him. That effect never changes; as opposed to Fenrir, Loki, Surt, and Hel, whose effects can be mitigated, simply by keeping them back.
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Mike Norris
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I find it interesting on agreeing with two things:

Fenrir and Nidhogg are brutal, whereas Hel is not much of a threat.

I still stand by Loki first for a couple reasons. Like Fenrir, he is a turn waster. But unlike Fenrir, the giants bring about negative effects like closing down areas, and also +1s for the enemies - including themselves. having Thor will help, but then again same with Frey pulling Fenrir. But then again that still might be just me feeling the burn from my first game and looking at a stack of giants then calling it quits....

Also question, if Fenrir is not calmed on 1 god's full turn and Fenrir is pulled again, does he have to be calmed twice now or still once? I don't remember if the rules cover that.
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Lee Fisher
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demondude777 wrote:

Also question, if Fenrir is not calmed on 1 god's full turn and Fenrir is pulled again, does he have to be calmed twice now or still once? I don't remember if the rules cover that.


Just once

Quote:
If Fenrir is taken from the stack as he is still angry, his counter moves forward
but his effect does not apply. The new Fenrir card should be placed on the
discard pile. The active God goes on trying to calm him down.


We tried to keep Fenrir and Jormungar to the bottom. It seemed good to deal with Nidhogg and Loki early on.
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Hi Mike,
Quote:
if Fenrir is not calmed on 1 god's full turn and Fenrir is pulled again, does he have to be calmed twice now or still once?


You have to calm him down only once, but his maybe new power effect applies, so he might be more difficult to calm down then.

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demondude777 wrote:
I find it interesting on agreeing with two things:

Fenrir and Nidhogg are brutal, whereas Hel is not much of a threat.

I still stand by Loki first for a couple reasons. Like Fenrir, he is a turn waster. But unlike Fenrir, the giants bring about negative effects like closing down areas, and also +1s for the enemies - including themselves. having Thor will help, but then again same with Frey pulling Fenrir. But then again that still might be just me feeling the burn from my first game and looking at a stack of giants then calling it quits....


Good points, Mike! You've almost convinced me that Loki is worse than Fenrir. The thing is, though, as dreadful as the Frost Giants are, if you "strategically" kill them, you will be getting benefits from the completion of the runes. On the other hand, if you calm Fenrir down, you gain nothing: one only loses actions with Fenrir, and there are never any side benefits.
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Jeremy Lennert
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amacleod wrote:
There may be a substantial qualitative difference between "small" and "nothing". But allow me to quote from my original post re the Nidhogg:
Quote:
...there's really nothing you can do to effectively combat his power: whether he's still in the starting block or whether he's knocking at Odin's door, his nightmarish effect is always the same.

In terms of his effect, nothing can be done to prevent that effect from happening. Every time a Nidhogg card is drawn, the Nidhogg will drag another enemy with him.

And that is simply false, because if a Nidhogg card is drawn that puts Nidhogg into Odin's Residence, then he will NOT drag another enemy with him.

His power doesn't vary based on the number of lightning bolts in his area, like the other gods, but it does still get turned off in Odin's Residence. So if you're looking for a way to reduce the damage his power does, that is it. It's not the same way as the one you use to mitigate Fenrir's power, but it does exist, despite your repeated and totally unsupported protestations to the contrary.
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Mike Norris
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Thank you everyone for helping clear up Fenrir

amacleod wrote:
Good points, Mike! You've almost convinced me that Loki is worse than Fenrir. The thing is, though, as dreadful as the Frost Giants are, if you "strategically" kill them, you will be getting benefits from the completion of the runes. On the other hand, if you calm Fenrir down, you gain nothing: one only loses actions with Fenrir, and there are never any side benefits.


Ah, and that is probably why we view Loki so differently. I tend to stay away from the giants deck, far far away. Usually I am depending on what runes I gain from what Loki gives me. Maybe i need to change the way I play and try to knock down some giants for faster completions of runes.

Good point!

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Antistone wrote:
amacleod wrote:
There may be a substantial qualitative difference between "small" and "nothing". But allow me to quote from my original post re the Nidhogg:
Quote:
...there's really nothing you can do to effectively combat his power: whether he's still in the starting block or whether he's knocking at Odin's door, his nightmarish effect is always the same.

In terms of his effect, nothing can be done to prevent that effect from happening. Every time a Nidhogg card is drawn, the Nidhogg will drag another enemy with him.

And that is simply false, because if a Nidhogg card is drawn that puts Nidhogg into Odin's Residence, then he will NOT drag another enemy with him.

His power doesn't vary based on the number of lightning bolts in his area, like the other gods, but it does still get turned off in Odin's Residence. So if you're looking for a way to reduce the damage his power does, that is it. It's not the same way as the one you use to mitigate Fenrir's power, but it does exist, despite your repeated and totally unsupported protestations to the contrary.


Forgive me; you are correct, Antistone. My apologies for not stating what I had been assuming was obvious to everyone; from what you're saying, it seems to have been only obvious to you and I.
Mind you, I did say originally (and I quoted myself in my second last post):
Quote:
But there's really nothing you can do to effectively combat his power: whether he's still in the starting block or whether he's knocking at Odin's door, his nightmarish effect is always the same.

I was saying that the Nidhogg's effect takes place always, up to and including the door of Odin's residence; by implication, that statement of mine meant that the Nidhogg's effect does not take place within Odin's residence itself, as is the case with every other enemy. I apologize for not making that implication clearer to you.

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demondude777 wrote:
Thank you everyone for helping clear up Fenrir

amacleod wrote:
Good points, Mike! You've almost convinced me that Loki is worse than Fenrir. The thing is, though, as dreadful as the Frost Giants are, if you "strategically" kill them, you will be getting benefits from the completion of the runes. On the other hand, if you calm Fenrir down, you gain nothing: one only loses actions with Fenrir, and there are never any side benefits.


Ah, and that is probably why we view Loki so differently. I tend to stay away from the giants deck, far far away. Usually I am depending on what runes I gain from what Loki gives me. Maybe i need to change the way I play and try to knock down some giants for faster completions of runes.

Good point!



Not that good a point, Mike! Giant hunting with runes in mind is fraught with risks and few guarantees. Both Loki and Fenrir are pretty frightening regardless!
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For me:

1) Fenrir: If bad luck strikes you, he can lose you the game no matter how far ahead you are. We have begun keeping him at the starting-line every game.

2) Nidhogg: This means Nidhogg always brings him forward. Even if he wasn't Fenrir's best friend, another enemy move is probably worse than any other power.

3) Jormungand: He can really wreck your Viking plans.

4) Loki: In my games, I prefer to kill giants as much as possible. Loki activates their powers (which sometimes hurts), but he also lets you select which runes you'd like to gather. If you keep him to 1 or 2 cards I find him manageable.

5) Surt: Most the time he doesn't even mess with a bag you're interested in. When he does, he makes it marginally more annoying. Nothing that can't be fixed with a single action in Muspelheim anyway.

6) Hel: As mentioned above, Hel is actually your friend. At worst (3 bolts in the single bag you wish she wouldn't roll) you can counteract her with one Helheim action. Anything else and she's just giving you access to more Vikings.
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Having played Yggie for over a year now (and since last November, always at high difficulty, except with noobs), I've totally reassessed my Worst Enemy List, and, with a minor exception, I'm in complete agreement with CapAp's list.
The exception is that I would now place the Nidhogg ahead of Fenrir. I'm starting to think there are only rare exceptions where the Nidhogg should be allowed to advance at all! He's a mini-Ragnarok card with every move, with his move-another-enemy ability. Best to keep him at the back of the pack.
It took me a long time to realize just how bad the Jormungand is. Yes, his ability doesn't get worse as he advances, but (as CapAp said) he can leave you in nightmarish situations where you have no access to Vikings at all....and there's nothing you can do about it!
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Edmund Bloxam
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Nidhogg is hands down the worst enemy. Letting him advance is a terrible idea and has lost me many a game. Always at the back. That's my first strategy. If you let him drag enemies, then the Ragnarok will kill you.

None of the others are anywhere near as bad. fenrir is clearly no.2, actions are key, but he rarely requires more than one to calm him down.

Jormungand is easy enough to deal with. The key to the whole game is managing the blue and the white bags. In all likelihood, Jormungand will be on one of them. To combat this, you just sit on the other island with the Valkyries. (Or move there later.)

Surt is next, then Hel, but I agree that Hel can actually help clear bags, which makes taking out fire demons (managing the bags!)

I let Loki progress as much as possible. Getting those bonuses totally floors the enemy's progress or gives you a huge boost. Get as many giants out as possible for this to work, so you have the correct combinations.
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The last two posters sound as if they keeping Nidhogg in the back to avoid triggering his power. Perhaps I have read wrong, but just as a reminder if Nidhogg is furthest behind, Nidhogg pulls itself foward... then moves its regular move.

Our group hates Fenrir the most. Bad rolls have lost us an entire player turn trying to combat Fenrir. Once he gets to the second or worse, third stage, Fenrir is a terror.
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chuckhazard wrote:
The last two posters sound as if they keeping Nidhogg in the back to avoid triggering his power. Perhaps I have read wrong, but just as a reminder if Nidhogg is furthest behind, Nidhogg pulls itself foward... then moves its regular move.

Our group hates Fenrir the most. Bad rolls have lost us an entire player turn trying to combat Fenrir. Once he gets to the second or worse, third stage, Fenrir is a terror.


Yes, the underlined is right: and that's precisely what we try to do, have the Nidhogg move twice. That way, we're only dealing with one enemy that's progressing, rather than two.
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