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Subject: Confused about 2nd edition rules rss

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Robert Olesen
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The expansion rules posted at Treefrog mages summarize the 2nd edition changes as follows:
Quote:
The second edition rules contain a few modifications and clarifications to the first edition rules. In short they are:
1. You now start the game with six cards each, irrelevant of the number of players
2. Please use the sea lane rules described in the Japan section
3. The game ends when the deck has been exhausted, even if there are still cards on display

The Japan sea lane rules state:
Quote:
Sea Lanes – You can use a sea lane to move coal/iron or sell cotton/manufactured goods in the same way as a rail connection IF there is a constructed port at each end of the sea lane and a constructed ship in between. It does not matter if the counters are flipped or not. A sea lane counts as a rail link that belongs to all players for the purposes of building with industry cards, e.g. one of you ship counters would allow you to use an industry card to build in any connected location, but only if there is a port there or you intend to build a port with your action.

The first part seem to require more than one port to be built before you can use the distant market or coal/iron supplied by the ship. Is that really the correct interpretation, and how does that make sense?

The part about building seems to have an inconsistency. It states that a ship lane belongs to all players, It then states that it has to be a ship counter owned by you if you want to use the link to build.
The best I can make of this is that if, say, I have a ship connected to Bridgeport where there is a port (owned by anyone), then I can use the sea link from the ship to New Haven to build a port there.

The last question is that I can't find these things in the 2nd edition rules.
 
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Snooze Fest
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Note: I haven't looked at the Japan map yet.

The first part of the quoted Japan rule does seem poorly worded, referring specifically to the port-sea lane-ship-sea lane-port connections. Unfortunately, that does not address the port-sea lane-ship-sea lane-(coal supply or distant market) situation, where a ship is only connected to one city by a port/sea lane combo. However, I think the intent is just to state that sea lanes are essentially not in the game until there is a port or ship built on each end of the sea lane. Therefore, if you have port-lane-ship-lane-(coal and/or distant market), you're good (i.e., may use the coal and/or distant market)! Also, if you have port-lane-ship-lane-port, you can use that series of connections to move cubes, if necessary.

That second part, about building, is consistent with the (spirit of) the basic rules: it is talking about using an industry card to build. The normal rules: if using an industry card to build, you must have a connection to the city -- either presence in the city already, or connection by your own rail link to another city where you have presence. The test is not simply having your track touching the city, but that the track must lead back to one of your tiles in some other city. For most cases that distinction does not matter; it does, however, for this pseudo-group-owned lane. So applying the normal rule to the situation described, where you are trying to use an industry card to build to a location connected by sea lane to a ship, the ship would have to be your own ship in order to meet the connection requirements.

Now as for that previous paragraph, you could rightly ask: how do I know for sure? My answer: I don't! I don't believe this interpretation has been stated before. However, I think it's true because it's sort of implied, it makes sense, and it's consistent with his and other similar train games -- you're growing your network, tracks don't generally appear by magic, and you always start in a city. It only becomes confusing when you introduce those damn, pseudo-group-owned sea lanes!!
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Jake Waltier
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It means you can treat a built port and another built port on the board as being connected as though there were railroads between them, as long as one of the ports also has a ship (ignore this last part if the map does not allow ships). The sea essentially becomes a railroad connecting any two ports, as long as one of those ports has a ship.
 
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Steven Steck
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TwentySides wrote:
It means you can treat a built port and another built port on the board as being connected as though there were railroads between them, as long as one of the ports also has a ship (ignore this last part if the map does not allow ships). The sea essentially becomes a railroad connecting any two ports, as long as one of those ports has a ship.


Not quite. You can use the two built ports to transport iron and coal only if there is a build ship between them. i.e. they two ports have to be on opposite ends of a sea lane with a built ship on it.

For instance, on the New England map, if ports are build in New Haven and New London, and a ship build on the sea lane connecting them, you can move goods between those two cities even if there isn't a railroad connecting them.

Also if there were a port in New Haven, and your ship built in the sea lane connecting it to New London, you could use the sea lane to build a port in New London .
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Jake Waltier
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Ah, I see. I didn't have the board in front of me and I was misremembering all the ports as being like Newburyport (one lane, one ship), rather than having some with sea lanes connecting to a shared ship space. Thanks for stepping in before I did more damage. blush
 
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Robert Olesen
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cubbieblue wrote:
TwentySides wrote:
It means you can treat a built port and another built port on the board as being connected as though there were railroads between them, as long as one of the ports also has a ship (ignore this last part if the map does not allow ships). The sea essentially becomes a railroad connecting any two ports, as long as one of those ports has a ship.


Not quite. You can use the two built ports to transport iron and coal only if there is a build ship between them. i.e. they two ports have to be on opposite ends of a sea lane with a built ship on it.

For instance, on the New England map, if ports are build in New Haven and New London, and a ship build on the sea lane connecting them, you can move goods between those two cities even if there isn't a railroad connecting them.

Also if there were a port in New Haven, and your ship built in the sea lane connecting it to New London, you could use the sea lane to build a port in New London .

I read the 2nd edition rules through and compared them with the original rules. It is in fact in the 2nd edition rules, and I agree with the interpretation above.
 
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Izak Marais
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Quote:
The normal rules: if using an industry card to build, you must have a connection to the city -- either presence in the city already, or connection by your own rail link to another city where you have presence. The test is not simply having your track touching the city, but that the track must lead back to one of your tiles in some other city. For most cases that distinction does not matter; it does, however, for this pseudo-group-owned lane. So applying the normal rule to the situation described, where you are trying to use an industry card to build to a location connected by sea lane to a ship, the ship would have to be your own ship in order to meet the connection requirements.


Hmm, now I am slightly confused about the normal (non-sea lane) rules after reading this! Suppose there are 3 cities in a line with two connections between them, i.e. city A connects to city B which connects to city C. The way I understand the normal rules is that, if Yellow has an industry in city A, and yellow has both rail roads connecting A-B and B-C, then yellow is allowed to build in C using an industry card even if Blue managed to build in B (by using an area card).

Is this correct?

If so, then it would not matter who controls the ship (or the ports at either end of a port-sea lane-ship-sea lane-port). As long as a player as a rail leading into one of the ports then they can build rail out of the other port?
 
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Izak Marais
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From the normal (2nd ed rules) this seems to confirm my suspicion:

Quote:
You can only build in a space [with an industry card] if at least one
of the following conditions is met: [...]
* If you played a ship card and the space in question is connected to
a location that contains a port and a counter of your own colour
(which may be the port counter, or a railway counter that connects
to the location
).


However nowhere in the rules does it specify that the "unowned" rail connections implied by completed sea-lanes can be used for determining connectivity when building with industry counters out of ports. These sea-lane connections are only mentioned with regard to transporting coal/iron. So the question remains unanswered.
 
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Izak Marais
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My question went unanswered here, but has luckily since been addressed in this thread.
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