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Subject: Buying buildings.... WHY? rss

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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Hi I just play my first couple of LeHavre games and won 2 times. (YAY!) Then I took a quick look at the proposed things to do when the game end draws near at the last page of the manual. There it says "use the shipping line to ship goods and buy buildings with the profits"

Why should I ever do that? Money equals victory points, and noone can take it away, so there is no need to somehow solidify the money in buildings or something. In fact as I get the game, every BOUGHT buildings is a waste of VP equal to building cost while building is VP gain equal to building cost.

So why is that proposed, or did I totally not get this game and just got lucky?
 
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You missed something.

Buildings (and ships) have a value in VP shown in the coin on the card. You get this value in VP whether you build or buy the building.

There are buildings that give bonus VP for owning certain other buildings. Even if you don't own the buildings that enable the bonus(es), buying the other buildings keeps them out of the hands of the players that do get the bonus(es).

Generally speaking, any funds beyond those you need to play out your game should be invested in buildings (except those that have a premium for purchase (like all ships (and the bonus buildings))). Not only are you keeping them out of others' hands, but you may well benefit from people paying to occupy them.

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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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fnord23 wrote:
You missed something.

Buildings (and ships) have a value in VP shown in the coin on the card. You get this value in VP whether you build or buy the building.



I know. But if I build them I still have the money plus I get the VP. If I buy the building I just have the transferred money in building and IN FACT have just squandered valuable VP in form of money. I do get the idea that it might be advantageous to buy buildings early on so you can profit from them, but as a "what to do when the game ends" it a very wasteful, "lets throw away VP" kind of thing.If I kept the money, I would have the same amount of VP as before.
 
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Georg D.
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benji_online wrote:
fnord23 wrote:
You missed something.

Buildings (and ships) have a value in VP shown in the coin on the card. You get this value in VP whether you build or buy the building.



I know. But if I build them I still have the money plus I get the VP. If I buy the building I just have the transferred money in building and IN FACT have just squandered valuable VP in form of money. I do get the idea that it might be advantageous to buy buildings early on so you can profit from them, but as a "what to do when the game ends" it a very wasteful, "lets throw away VP" kind of thing.If I kept the money, I would have the same amount of VP as before.


I don't get your point - why do you 'throw away VP'? You still have the same VP if you have 30 Franc or 20 Franc and a building worth 10 VP. So buying a building doesn't lower your VP total (there are ships and some buildings which actually do - but not many of them).
Of corse you should always have some money at hand to pay entrance fee but if you have 20+ Franc and there are some buildings for sale you waste the opportunity to get buildings where you could get bonusVP for having some of that type or at least you make sure your opponents doesn't get this boni.
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Don't forget...

5) If you buy a building that the town owns, then any person (including yourself) that is in the building is removed from the building, allowing you to then enter the building. This situation doesn't often come up, but is occasionally useful too.

As pointed out, buying a building (inclding buying the top one from the "proposed building" stacks) doesn't cost you one of your precious actions (i.e. the "take resources or enter a building" actions). Buy wisely and buy often.
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benji_online wrote:

I know.


No, you don't. Re-read what I said, and what the other posters have said.

VP is VP. Turning money into buildings is the *same* VP, and, assuming you have enough cash for your needs, you'd rather have buildings than cash for the several reasons we've pointed out.

Quote:
If I buy the building I just have the transferred money in building and IN FACT have just squandered valuable VP in form of money.


Nope.

Quote:
but as a "what to do when the game ends" it a very wasteful, "lets throw away VP" kind of thing.


Nope.

Quote:
If I kept the money, I would have the same amount of VP as before.


Yes, but, as we've pointed out, there are noticable advantages to converting the money into buildings, rather than letting it sit. *And*, there are no downsides to doing so. (Again, assuming you have enough cash left for your needs for the balance of the game.)
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fnord23 wrote:
You missed something.

Buildings (and ships) have a value in VP shown in the coin on the card. You get this value in VP whether you build or buy the building.

I don't get your point - why do you 'throw away VP'? You still have the same VP if you have 30 Franc or 20 Franc and a building worth 10 VP. So buying a building doesn't lower your VP total (there are ships and some buildings which actually do - but not many of them).
Of corse you should always have some money at hand to pay entrance fee but if you have 20+ Franc and there are some buildings for sale you waste the opportunity to get buildings where you could get bonusVP for having some of that type or at least you make sure your opponents doesn't get this boni.


Ok so you buy it strictly for the purpose of denying the enemy (who could've built and therefore GAINED VP) VP and no VP gain or loss for you. That makes sense.

valkyria75 wrote:
there are several points you are missing about buying buildings

[q="valkyria75"]

1) you dont pay entry fees if you own them

since you buy as a free action you dont lose anything in money by buying 1 or more buildings unless you need to have cash on hand


Yeah I know, but building is always superior, right?

valkyria75 wrote:

2) some buildings give you bonuses. check out how the marketplace works for example, also the bank and town hall later on give more points for buildings


THIS I can absolutely understand.

valkyria75 wrote:

3) you control entry to the building, even if someone else goes in it, if you really need it you can then sell it back to town at half price, but now the building is empty so you can use it

there are loads of good reasons to buy buildings in fact.
[q="valkyria75"]
4) you dont squander any VP for almost all buildings,. If you have 10 cash, which will be 10VP in the end and you buy a building for 10 cash, that building is also worth 10VP, so maybe you're getting a bit confused there.


I totally got that, I just mean, if a building costs 1 clay 1 wood and 1 iron and has a money cost of 12: if I buy it I have made ZERO VP. If I build it I just made 12VP.
 
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valkyria75 wrote:
Sure, if you can build them you gain VP from resources, but you had to use an action to do so. In the beginning thats usually good, eg some of the early buildings you can build for a wood and a clay, then you made 10 to 12 VP like you say, but later on, taking the resources you need to build buildings that need iron, brick and steel require you to get those resources (action), convert them (action), build (action)... whereas instead you can just buy a building (no action) and use it (action), this often gets you a lot more VP than what you would gain by trying to save up and build buildings

but dont underestimate the power of being able to quickly snag 1 or more buildings at some point in your turn to get entry fees of other people, and to guarantee yourself entry to it in the next turn


sure, early on, building the charcoal kiln for 1 wood or clay nets you 8VP, but you still used 2 actions to get the resources and then build. Later on when youve stockpiled steel and brick (or if you have) it might make sense again to build the church and the other high value buildings, in fact I do this quite a bit for a huge 40-50VP action, but for most of the game, buying a building is very much a good option in several different ways


BTW. How do you get 50VP in one action?
 
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In the endgame, good players will buy buildings either to get the bonus points associated with the Bank and Town Hall (assuming that they own one or both already) or to prevent their opponents from doing so.

In the midgame, good players will buy buildings to "snipe" them away from opponents on the brink of building them. This applies especially to buildings such as the Shipping Line, Iron Works, Cokery, etc.

In the early game, good players will buy buildings to increase their symbol-count for either the Marketplace or the Clay Mound (extending also to the Colliery).

Buying is a free action. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in Le Havre. The idea that building is superior because it gains you new points assumes that building is the primary way of gaining new points, which is false, and it further assumes that ongoing board position vs. the other players (who owns what) isn't worth competing for when other players are clearly one step ahead in assembling the proper resources to build something, which is also false.
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benji_online wrote:

I totally got that, I just mean, if a building costs 1 clay 1 wood and 1 iron and has a money cost of 12: if I buy it I have made ZERO VP. If I build it I just made 12VP.


Everyone understands this, it's just irrelevant.

Building is not the only way to generate VP in Le Havre. If you already have the cash and need a particular building to pursue a strategy or create strong board position against your opposition, then buying is an excellent option to use. In fact, assembling the resources to *build* in such cases is a fool's errand, wasting precious actions doing something you could already have accomplished instead of pursuing the next goals in your strategy.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
In the endgame, good players will buy buildings either to get the bonus points associated with the Bank and Town Hall (assuming that they own one or both already) or to prevent their opponents from doing so.

In the midgame, good players will buy buildings to "snipe" them away from opponents on the brink of building them. This applies especially to buildings such as the Shipping Line, Iron Works, Cokery, etc.

In the early game, good players will buy buildings to increase their symbol-count for either the Marketplace or the Clay Mound (extending also to the Colliery).

Buying is a free action. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in Le Havre. The idea that building is superior because it gains you new points assumes that building is the primary way of gaining new points, which is false, and it further assumes that ongoing board position vs. the other players (who owns what) isn't worth competing for when other players are clearly one step ahead in assembling the proper resources to build something, which is also false.


WOW. Thank you very much. I wish I had GG to give because that was an awesome explanation. Again thank you. This is why I love the BGG!
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benji_online wrote:
valkyria75 wrote:
Sure, if you can build them you gain VP from resources, but you had to use an action to do so. In the beginning thats usually good, eg some of the early buildings you can build for a wood and a clay, then you made 10 to 12 VP like you say, but later on, taking the resources you need to build buildings that need iron, brick and steel require you to get those resources (action), convert them (action), build (action)... whereas instead you can just buy a building (no action) and use it (action), this often gets you a lot more VP than what you would gain by trying to save up and build buildings

but dont underestimate the power of being able to quickly snag 1 or more buildings at some point in your turn to get entry fees of other people, and to guarantee yourself entry to it in the next turn


sure, early on, building the charcoal kiln for 1 wood or clay nets you 8VP, but you still used 2 actions to get the resources and then build. Later on when youve stockpiled steel and brick (or if you have) it might make sense again to build the church and the other high value buildings, in fact I do this quite a bit for a huge 40-50VP action, but for most of the game, buying a building is very much a good option in several different ways


BTW. How do you get 50VP in one action?


It's also not uncommon to see this happen via shipping, particularly when steel and/or coal are shipped.
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benji_online wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
In the endgame, good players will buy buildings either to get the bonus points associated with the Bank and Town Hall (assuming that they own one or both already) or to prevent their opponents from doing so.

In the midgame, good players will buy buildings to "snipe" them away from opponents on the brink of building them. This applies especially to buildings such as the Shipping Line, Iron Works, Cokery, etc.

In the early game, good players will buy buildings to increase their symbol-count for either the Marketplace or the Clay Mound (extending also to the Colliery).

Buying is a free action. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in Le Havre. The idea that building is superior because it gains you new points assumes that building is the primary way of gaining new points, which is false, and it further assumes that ongoing board position vs. the other players (who owns what) isn't worth competing for when other players are clearly one step ahead in assembling the proper resources to build something, which is also false.


WOW. Thank you very much. I wish I had GG to give because that was an awesome explanation. Again thank you. This is why I love the BGG!


Here you are. Have 1 GG to tip John with it!
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Ponton wrote:
benji_online wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
In the endgame, good players will buy buildings either to get the bonus points associated with the Bank and Town Hall (assuming that they own one or both already) or to prevent their opponents from doing so.

In the midgame, good players will buy buildings to "snipe" them away from opponents on the brink of building them. This applies especially to buildings such as the Shipping Line, Iron Works, Cokery, etc.

In the early game, good players will buy buildings to increase their symbol-count for either the Marketplace or the Clay Mound (extending also to the Colliery).

Buying is a free action. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in Le Havre. The idea that building is superior because it gains you new points assumes that building is the primary way of gaining new points, which is false, and it further assumes that ongoing board position vs. the other players (who owns what) isn't worth competing for when other players are clearly one step ahead in assembling the proper resources to build something, which is also false.


WOW. Thank you very much. I wish I had GG to give because that was an awesome explanation. Again thank you. This is why I love the BGG!


Here you are. Have 1 GG to tip John with it!


Thank you I shall use this wisely to further promote good posts!
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benji_online wrote:
valkyria75 wrote:
Sure, if you can build them you gain VP from resources, but you had to use an action to do so. In the beginning thats usually good, eg some of the early buildings you can build for a wood and a clay, then you made 10 to 12 VP like you say, but later on, taking the resources you need to build buildings that need iron, brick and steel require you to get those resources (action), convert them (action), build (action)... whereas instead you can just buy a building (no action) and use it (action), this often gets you a lot more VP than what you would gain by trying to save up and build buildings

but dont underestimate the power of being able to quickly snag 1 or more buildings at some point in your turn to get entry fees of other people, and to guarantee yourself entry to it in the next turn


sure, early on, building the charcoal kiln for 1 wood or clay nets you 8VP, but you still used 2 actions to get the resources and then build. Later on when youve stockpiled steel and brick (or if you have) it might make sense again to build the church and the other high value buildings, in fact I do this quite a bit for a huge 40-50VP action, but for most of the game, buying a building is very much a good option in several different ways


BTW. How do you get 50VP in one action?


By shipping leather or steel.
 
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benji_online wrote:
Hi I just play my first couple of LeHavre games and won 2 times. (YAY!) Then I took a quick look at the proposed things to do when the game end draws near at the last page of the manual. There it says "use the shipping line to ship goods and buy buildings with the profits"

Why should I ever do that? Money equals victory points, and noone can take it away, so there is no need to somehow solidify the money in buildings or something. In fact as I get the game, every BOUGHT buildings is a waste of VP equal to building cost while building is VP gain equal to building cost.

So why is that proposed, or did I totally not get this game and just got lucky?


There are several buildings that come out in the late game that give you bonus points for owning certain types of buildings in the end game.

So, you break near-even on the franc-building worth exchange, and gain a bonus on the building for owning certain types of buildings in the end.

I think you might not be looking closely at the building text near the end of the game?
 
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valkyria75 wrote:
for example buying the church and football stadium as a double build.... 50 VP, of course thats if you have brick and steel spare thats not already shipped!


Yes! This is why you would do this exactly.
 
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