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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fall of the Empire scenario rss

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Tomas Inguanzo
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The scenario rules say you can't use anything from Shattered Empires. Does that include the new techs and the old techs with new pre-reqs? Does FotE use the base game tech tree?
 
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Henry Coleman
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The rules seem to suggest you can't even use the politics and action cards from SE. When I play I will certainly ignore this rule along with disallowing the techs from SE.
 
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Washington Irving
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I was going to use the technologies from shattered empire, since the new techs are not referred to as an optional rule.
 
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Nick Blank
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Action cards are not optional so I would use those, but if you draw a card that refers to something you are not using you might have to allow a redraw. Political cards are replaced by the Agenda cards for the scenario, you are not supposed to use the Political cards.
 
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Steve Williams
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boxjuggler wrote:
The rules seem to suggest you can't even use the politics and action cards from SE. When I play I will certainly ignore this rule along with disallowing the techs from SE.


Replacing Political Cards with Agenda cards is half the point of Fall of the Empire, seems silly to ignore that. FotE has it's own specific Civilization [3] and Industry [8] Strategy Cards to replace Political and Imperial.

Suggesting the removal of Shattered Empire Action Cards is likely just for flavor reasons, as those cards are supposed to be more indicative of the post-war destabilized imperial system. I concur with not bothering to remove these, if something doesn't work just discard it and draw another [such as with the Strategic Shift action card in a 4 player game, since sorting through ~180 cards to find 2 that don't work is silly].

Also, the reason the Racial Techs are disallowed is because the Lazax player doesn't have any, nor a Flagship, Leaders, or Councilors. Allowing these options just makes it an even more uphill battle for the already pressured Lazax player.

Of course you can always play with any options you like, but then you aren't really playing FotE any more and should just create your own scenario.
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Stephen Williams
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KalKraken wrote:
I was going to use the technologies from shattered empire, since the new techs are not referred to as an optional rule.


I don't have Shards yet, but unless the OP misspoke, this scenario says not to use ANYTHING from SE. It doesn't say to ignore optional rules, it says to ignore all rules. As in, remove the expansion entirely. Techs, races, systems, cards, everything.

If you want to argue that some SE material must be left in because the SE rules "don't give you a choice," well, the FotE scenario has a rule that says to remove those rules. No choice. Specific rule trumps general rule, and "don't use SE for this scenario game" is certainly more specific than "you must use these rules in any game including SE."

Aside from potential balance issues when facing an already disabled Lazax player (as others have mentioned) I would imagine it's also a flavour thing. In the timeline of Twilight Imperium, everything added by Shattered Empires is stuff that wasn't introduced until well after the Lazax empire fell (as is implied by it's name, even!), so that stuff rightly shouldn't be around if you're playing a "historical" scenario set prior to those events.

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't rule out the use of War Suns as well. (Unless they did and that just hasn't been mentioned yet.)

If and when I get around to playing this scenario, I would do exactly as it says and removed the entire expansion. I probably wouldn't sort through the entire Action Deck, but I would tell everyone at the table to discard and redraw any cards with the SE symbol on them. I wouldn't endorse leaving it up to "what makes sense" though, because I can imagine a certain type of player who might argue any particular card he wants to replace "doesn't make sense." Win or lose, such arguments would draw out the game and makes things less fun all around.
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Mike Anastasia
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Stewi wrote:
If and when I get around to playing this scenario, I would do exactly as it says and removed the entire expansion.


Would you really go back into your old boxes and switch out the Assault Cannon technology for the older version that doesn't require the Automated Defence Turrets technology? That just seems to me like way more work than it is worth. FFG went overboard in asking us to utterly purge an expansion that wrapped itself into the game so completely.

To throw an even more bs argument out there in favor of playing with shattered empire components - there is a 7 player Fall of Empire setup map, and other rules for the 7 player game. Does the 7th player have to use invisible plastic ships, or buy a second copy of the base game? Clearly he isn't allowed to use the gray or orange ships that came in SE.
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Scott Lewis
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hrhtomas wrote:
The scenario rules say you can't use anything from Shattered Empires.

Since it says "all other optional rules cannot be used", I think it's referring to the various "variant" options, things that you would choose to include or exclude in the expansion.

While it does say "all components", I think that "all components" was meant in reference only to the optional rules (as most of the components in SE are for these optional rules).

I would definitely say the techs and ACs from SE were intended to be included. Maneuvering Jets is only half-useful without Ion Storms, but the PDS protection is still nice, for instance. (And technically, Ion Storms aren't lumped in with the "optional rules", either, although they aren't included on the Fall of the Empire map).
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