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Subject: First game (3player), Khorne steamrolled. Not fun. Advice? rss

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Joliet
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Hi, all!
We played with Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Khorne. And wasn't even close.

We WANT to like this game, and we're not sure why it seemed imbalanced.

But Khorne just shot right up the victory dial, easily able to score victories, and it wasn't close.

Were we doing anything wrong?

 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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My advice is to not worry about who wins in your first attempt at any moderately complex game. None of you can possibly have the skills to play particularly well at that point, so who wins and by how much is largely irrelevant. You're learning the system at that point, and forming ideas about what to try next time.

If you want info about how to deal with Khorne, look through the folders here and you'll see dozens of threads discussing that.
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Todd Warnken
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Tumulorum Fossor wrote:
Hi, all!
We played with Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Khorne. And wasn't even close.

We WANT to like this game, and we're not sure why it seemed imbalanced.

But Khorne just shot right up the victory dial, easily able to score victories, and it wasn't close.

Were we doing anything wrong?



We had the exact same situation in our only play of the game and now my group doesn't want to play it so I'm trading it away.
 
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Andrew
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Firstly, make sure that you are playing correctly: the maximum number of dial advances someone can get in one round is two (if they have the most tokens, untied). (Advancing once for every token is a common newbie misinterpretation of the rules.)

If you're doing that correctly, you need to stop Khorne from getting dial advance tokens in the first couple of turns. You can do this by running away when he sends warriors in to kill you, or by playing defensive cards like Rain of Pus, Fields of Ecstasy, Temporal Stasis, or by Teleporting his first unit to a far corner of the Old World (Norsca is usually a good bet).

Some recommend summoning warriors to fight back and force him to spend PP next turn resummoning his units.

Also, some don't recommend 3p with Khorne and Nurgle because Nurgle gets beaten up by Khorne and gives him lots of dial tokens. Slaanesh and Tzeentch have more defensive capabilities.
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fateswanderer wrote:
Also, some don't recommend 3p with Khorne and Nurgle because Nurgle gets beaten up by Khorne and gives him lots of dial tokens. Slaanesh and Tzeentch have more defensive capabilities.

Some of us don't recommend 3p regardless of the configuration. It's a great game with 4.
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Dan Bradshaw
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Without knowing what you did, it's hard to say if you did anything wrong. I will mention, though, 3 things that new players tend to get wrong that give Khorne an unfair advantage:
1. Khorne does NOT get dial advancement tokens for killing peasants, only for killing enemy units.

2. Khorne does NOT get multiple dial advancement tokens for killing multiple units in one region. If he kills 5 units in one region, he only gets one token for that. If he kills one unit in each of 5 regions, he'll get 5 tokens. So often it's a good idea to keep your units together so he has less regions in which to kill.

3. No matter how many dial advancement tokens any player has at the end of a give turn, the most dial turns is always 2. So even if Khorne does get 5 dial tokens by killing enemies in 5 regions, at most he'll turn his dial twice. That applies to all the players, but it's most commonly an issue with Khorne.
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Quote:
the maximum number of dial advances someone can get in one round is two (if they have the most tokens, untied). (Advancing once for every token is a common newbie misinterpretation of the rules.)


Nope, we played that correctly.

Every turn, Khorne scored multiple victories in different regions getting two dial advances a turn (most tokens, untied).

I'll do some more reading here, as it sounds like its a good game, but we're suffering from small sample size.

And that Khorne should not be present in three player games.
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Thanks, Dan. We played all those rules correctly, though.

We're all reading this thread together and feel that the non-Khorne players spread forces too thin.

I also want to point out that in our game debriefing, we also noted that Khorne had an extraordinarily good open card draw, with multiple Blood Frenzy cards (I think three) that came out very early on. Also the other players did not have good defensive cards, going through the deck and figuring out the card distributions.
 
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Jeffrey Speer
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People also make the mistake of not running away from Khorne. There's a reason he has to go first.
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Pedro Reis
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Sphere wrote:
fateswanderer wrote:
Also, some don't recommend 3p with Khorne and Nurgle because Nurgle gets beaten up by Khorne and gives him lots of dial tokens. Slaanesh and Tzeentch have more defensive capabilities.

Some of us don't recommend 3p regardless of the configuration. It's a great game with 4.


Right on the money! Chaos is a great 4 player game and just a meh 3player game
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Poor Dick
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Sphere wrote:
fateswanderer wrote:
Also, some don't recommend 3p with Khorne and Nurgle because Nurgle gets beaten up by Khorne and gives him lots of dial tokens. Slaanesh and Tzeentch have more defensive capabilities.

Some of us don't recommend 3p regardless of the configuration. It's a great game with 4.


I don't know, I think 3 player games are just fine, however, they do take a higher level of skill/more experience to play; which is a bit unfortunate, as most 3 player games (in my limited experience) occur with inexperienced players.
 
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Michael Mesich
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Kaworu17 wrote:
People also make the mistake of not running away from Khorne. There's a reason he has to go first.


Quoted for Truth.
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mark coomey
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My advice is that's what happens in most newbie games. Try again with a more co-operative approach against Korne and you'll see a completely different game.
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Bryan Maxwell
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This seems to be a fairly common thing with Chaos. Everyone initially thinks Khorne is overpowered (my group included). Khorne is the easiest, most straight-forward god to play, while the other 3 are quite complicated for beginners. Eventually we learned how to deal with him and then the game really took off. I have logged 9 plays of it and the wins look like this:

Khorne: 4
Slaanesh: 2
Nurgle: 2
Tzeench: 1

Noteworthy that Khorne won 4 of the first 5.

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Joe Stude
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I consider myself a pretty experienced player (20+ games). Though they're much less frequent than when we first started playing, runaway Khorne games still occur, usually driven by a combination of lack of "anti-khorne" events and hot dice/cold dice for Khorne and other players respectively. We had such a game tonight, actually, where the other three gods (including me as Nurgle) just kinda threw up our hands in helplessness. Khorne won this one by dial in 5 turns, double-ticking in all but one of the turns. It was really just a perfect storm of shite. Making it harder to swallow was the fact that our Khorne player had never played Khorne before.

Pretty disappointing overall but ultimately, like any other game, shit sometimes happens. Just set up and play again.
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Mr_Nuts wrote:
This seems to be a fairly common thing with Chaos. Everyone initially thinks Khorne is overpowered (my group included).

That depends on the type of players in the group. Khorne was beaten badly in the first couple of games at my house. When I eeked out a narrow win with him over Tzeentch in our third game I wrote a session report, and one of the first responses posted was "Finally we have a SR where Khorne actually wins!".
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Brian M
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The game is not remotely balanced. Khorne is way overpowered. But, if all the other players gang up on Khorne from turn 1, Khorne will have a very hard time winning and get to play kingmaker instead.
 
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Gustav Åkerfelt
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Seems like khorne is the big winner or the big looser initially, depending on your group. (look at other topics here.) Personally i see CitOW as a 4-player game ONLY. The powers need each other to balance out, and to take enough space on the board. With the new expansion, its 4-5, but I never thought 3 was a good option.

A small amount of ganging up will usually solve the problem of any one particular power being dominant in the group. The game only evens it out so much, you need to keep each other in check too. :arrrh:

Personally I like to play nurgle, so being mostly static and in predictable regions, i tend to run into Khorne a lot. Usually i dodge when i can, and bring the violence when i can't. Ok, so he get's his one tick, but i reset his warriors. In our group, Khorne won in the beginning, and is now below his 25% avarage, with slaanesh & tzeenech (and their quick dial wins) taking the lead.
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Drake Coker
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The first time we played (also 3 player), Khorne dominated and we had a hard time seeing how he could lose.

After the second play, we couldn't see how he could win he had been crushed so badly.

Just convince your friends to play a couple more times. The game will even out as you discover the appropriate strategies for each side.
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StormKnight wrote:
The game is not remotely balanced. Khorne is way overpowered. But, if all the other players gang up on Khorne from turn 1, Khorne will have a very hard time winning and get to play kingmaker instead.

We had no idea you thought that, Brian. devil
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Andrew
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I wouldn't be too hasty to dismiss 3p; there are session reports and strategy articles about it, describing how the game takes on different flavours.
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Having read this thread, the three of us played CitOW again last night, with an additional fourth player, to whom we assigned Khorne.

Because of the first experience with 3 players, there was definitely more ganging up on Khorne, and he was well contained.

In fact, I think the group focused so much on Khorne that we didn't notice Slaanesh establishing himself with an abundance of Corruption Tokens until it was too late.

Since the first game ended relatively quickly and we hadn't experienced Ruination of any territories, we were surprised when, in what turned out to be the final game turn, three territories hit ruination at the same time, resulting in large victory point awards. Since we didn't keep Slaanesh in check, he practically had a monopoly on the final 2 of the three ruined territories, and scored big.

As Nurgle, I couldn't convince Tzeentch that Slaanesh was a growing threat until it was too late. Tzeentch and Slaanesh were maintaining detente in the South and West territories while I was trying to focus on the Central populous regions. Khorne initially focused on ME in the center, unfortunately, while Tzeentch and Slaanesh were generally cooperating with one another, corrupting their regions. Tzeentch would occasionally branch out, but Slaanesh really established himself in two Western regions firmly.

I wasn't in a good position to be able to get figures into the rapidly corrupting West. But EVENTUALLY got established in the central region. I tried to foment discord between Tzeentch and Slaanesh, but Tzeentch just seemed satisfied to let Slaanesh control the west, maintaining a small presence there, while also spreading and making a small, but sole, presence in the Southwest. I think that's why I couldn't convince Tzeentch to keep Slaanesh in check (until it was WAAAY too late).

In the final turn of the game, when ruinition of three regions arose (our first experience with ruinition in this, our second, game playing), my region scored first (and therefore cheapest). Slaanesh scored big on ruination #2 and absolutely killed for VPs on ruination #3.

Final score was: Slaanesh 56; Nurgle 26; Tzeentch 25; Khorne 14(ish).

This game experience was MUCH MUCH better than before.

The winner, on post game debriefing, felt that his major success was a little accidental. That he only established himself to ensure DACs in one territory, but that we, the other players, unintentionally allowed the delaying of ruination in his territories through chaos cardplay, which also let him boost domination point earnings there for more turns than he would have been entitled against more experienced players. And that we should have tried to ACCELERATE the ruination in the west.

I still have hope that 3 player will be entertaining as we learn more, as learning what the OTHER races' motivations is KEY to having a meaningful game experience in CitOW. Players cannot intelligently interfere with other players without that knowledge.

Initially, Khorne's simplistic strategy allows for efficient offense for that player as the playing group has a tough time learning what their OWN races' unique recipe for victory is, so it is very effective. However, it's a double edged sword: it's easy for the playing group to RECOGNIZE Khorne's strategy, and gauge how effective he is applying it, and to interfere. Learning how to do that against the other races takes a little more time.

Anyways, those are my thoughts at this time.

I am VERY GLAD we gave this game another try with four players, and we all have high hopes for it.

I am not prepared to throw out the 3 player experience just yet. But not with inexperienced players.
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Joe Stude
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needless to say there's a happy medium between handing Khorne a dinner plate and ganging up on him the entire game. Glad you gave it another try and enjoyed yourself.
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Daniel Hammond
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Another thing you can do besides delaying and running from Khorne is pool your resources, the more spread out the other players are the more areas Khorne can gain tokens from.

You can also stop a double tick by helping someone else get a tick somewhere to tie the leader (always worth doing if you aren't the leader and don't put yourself at a disadvantage).

If you have to fight Khorne do it where you restrict his placement in the next turn (cut him off from areas where you have forces). Nothing better than having Khorne only have one warrior in the first region and nothing else on the board.

If you want an area, especially Nurgle since you only have 4 to choose from, bring enough warriors to make Khorne resummon every turn (the other upside is domination).
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Bryan Maxwell
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Players keeping each other in check is a key component of Chaos. Glad to hear your second play went well.
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