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Chaos in the Old World: The Horned Rat Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Points received from Bloodletters upgrade rss

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Paul Sinkovits
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How do you interpret points received from Khorne's Bloodletters upgrade? Suppose Kislev has two enemy cultists and a Bloodletter. The Bloodletter is able to kill both cultists.

A.) Does Khorne receive 2 points for meeting the criteria of killing a figure in a region containing a Bloodletter?

or

B.) Does Khorne receive a total of 4 points? 2 points per figure he killed in the region with the Bloodletter.

Thanks in advance!
 
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nishadham
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"Each time you kill a figure in a region containing a bloodletter" seems to imply that it's B. 4 Points for 2 figures.

 
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Gerhardt Schroeder
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What are people's experiences with this upgrade? I agree that B. is the more natural reading of the language. But at the same time, it seems overpowered with that reading. Based on the games I've played, that's probably worth 4 - 6 VPs per turn for Khorne, with Khorne able to get that upgrade on the first or second turn. Compare that with Provider of Ruin in vanilla which is worth 9 - 12 VPs total in most games, and was a pretty powerful upgrade for that.

So going by the language I'd say B., but in terms of game balance I'm inclined to say A. Or is it not as powerful as it seems even with the B. reading?
 
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Paul Sinkovits
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Doomcow wrote:
What are people's experiences with this upgrade? I agree that B. is the more natural reading of the language. But at the same time, it seems overpowered with that reading. Based on the games I've played, that's probably worth 4 - 6 VPs per turn for Khorne, with Khorne able to get that upgrade on the first or second turn. Compare that with Provider of Ruin in vanilla which is worth 9 - 12 VPs total in most games, and was a pretty powerful upgrade for that.

So going by the language I'd say B., but in terms of game balance I'm inclined to say A. Or is it not as powerful as it seems even with the B. reading?


This was exactly my line of thinking, too. I have not yet had a chance to play with the expansion, which makes me hesitate to call it over powered, but first impressions make it seem so.

In a race to ruin in the end game, when there wind up 10+ cultists in a single region Khorne could be in there rolling 8+ dice just mopping up the points. IMHO it is not inconceivable that Khorne bank 24 points in a single turn!

I guess I'll find out in practice.

 
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Blue Jackal
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Yes, it does seem really potent if it can trigger multiple times per region.

If it does trigger multiple times per region, would it have killed them to write, "For every figure you kill" instead of "each time you kill a figure."
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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BlueJackal wrote:
If it does trigger multiple times per region, would it have killed them to write, "For every figure you kill" instead of "each time you kill a figure."


I thought it was a parallel to his dial tick condition (kill two figures in a region, get a dial tick and 2 VP, kill one and you still get 2VP) specifically because of the much simpler wording, but I agree this is a complete toss-up for me.
 
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Bryan Myers
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Khorne only needs to kill one figure for his DAC, not two. That's in the base game, and it hasn't changed for the expansion.
I read it as 2 VP per kill; if that's not the intended interpretation, they should have written "each time you kill one or more figures in a region."
 
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Paul Sinkovits
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Darian wrote:
...if that's not the intended interpretation, they should have written "each time you kill one or more figures in a region."


I agree. Nevertheless, this would certainly not be the first time there was phrasing inconsistencies in the rules. I still see it as a toss up.

Thanks for all you feedback!
 
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Poor Dick
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nickjanaway wrote:
"Each time you kill a figure in a region containing a bloodletter" seems to imply that it's B. 4 Points for 2 figures.



I agree with this.
 
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Mr Suplex
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2pts per kill (interpretation B). Its not overpowered since this is really the only way Khorne will usually be able to score a VP win (remember that Khorne only has 4 Cultists, so he won't be scoring many points for Ruination). If Khorne uses this card, he has to forgo the cards that aid him in his dial victory conditions (Bloodthirster and Vengeance come to mind).

If you used interpretation A, this would be one of the most useless upgrade cards in the game.
 
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Paul Sinkovits
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Khorne may only have 4 cultists, but can still slap down some good corruption for ruination by using his Bloodbath (0) chaos card.

Also, don't forget that good potential of using the Rampage (1) chaos card in conjunction with the Bloodletters upgrade. Blood for the blood god!

 
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Blue Jackal
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Mr Suplex wrote:
2pts per kill (interpretation B). Its not overpowered since this is really the only way Khorne will usually be able to score a VP win (remember that Khorne only has 4 Cultists, so he won't be scoring many points for Ruination). If Khorne uses this card, he has to forgo the cards that aid him in his dial victory conditions (Bloodthirster and Vengeance come to mind).

If you used interpretation A, this would be one of the most useless upgrade cards in the game.


Doesn't Khorne have at least 6 Bloodletters?

I would not call being able to score 12 points per round "useless."

Khorne also has Bloodbath, Skulltaker, and Lure of Battle to help him with VP. There's also the Upgrade which doubles his Cultists' domination value.

There's also Rampage, which lets you start an immediate battle.
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Mr Suplex
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Good points. I still think its per kill though. You guys are looking at very optimal situations which rarely occur in my experience if the other players know how to keep Khorne in check.
 
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Blue Jackal
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It could go either way, and since Cultists no longer kill things, maybe it could be per kill - but don't forget about the Bloodthirster.

With Bloodletters in both regions: Rampage with a Bloodthirster -> Free Bloodthirster Summon -> Battle-phase.

Ouch!
 
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Tom Henderson
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It's actually much worse (or better depending on your point of view) then your thinking: the bloodletter only has to be present! Add to that that bloodletters and your Bloodthirster can attack during the summoning phase (with the proper card). We've seen it fairly common for Khorne to score over 10 pts per round from this upgrade alone.

Khorne can easily win on VP now by playing the dominace game, this upgrade, and judicious cultist placement for ruiner bonuses and maybe a second place finish.

 
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Paul Sinkovits
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Consider this, the DAC for Nurgle reads:

"Place a counter on your dial each time you place two or more corruption tokens on a Populous region in the same phase".

It uses the same "each time" verbiage as the Bloodletters upgrade. Since FFG has clarified this being applicable only once per region/per phase, perhaps the Bloodletters upgrade follows in suit.
 
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Bryan Myers
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Paul210 wrote:
Consider this, the DAC for Nurgle reads:

"Place a counter on your dial each time you place two or more corruption tokens on a Populous region in the same phase".

It uses the same "each time" verbiage as the Bloodletters upgrade. Since FFG has clarified this being applicable only once per region/per phase, perhaps the Bloodletters upgrade follows in suit.


To my reading, the part that restricts Nurgle to once per phase is the "or more" and the ending phrase (emphasis added).
If they intended to restrict the VP, the upgrade should read "each time you kill one or more figures in a region containing a Bloodletter."
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Nicholas Olver
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We played two games last night (5 player, new cards) Khorne won both.

1st game was played with the Bloodletters upgrade card ruled to work as 2VP PER KILL. Khorne won via points with a lead on the other gods
of 20/25 points.

2nd game was played with the Bloodletters upgrade card ruled to work as 2VP PER KILL PER REGION. Khorne won via points, a few points ahead of the next closest player.

 
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Jeff Stafford
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This upgrade plus the Vengeance upgrade (one add'l battle die) allow for a pretty overpowered combination in my opinion, also considering how quickly Khorne receives upgrades.

I was a little bored at work today, so assuming that Khorne has both upgrades and rolls 3 dice for a Bloodletter, here's the result set from me rolling 18 dice (3 dice * 6 bloodletters on the table) a total of 1,000,000 times (I did say I was bored at work). This also takes into account exploding 6's.

hits times rolled exact % at least%
24 1 0.0001 0.0001
23 5 0.0005 0.0006
22 29 0.0029 0.0035
21 109 0.0109 0.0144
20 288 0.0288 0.0432
19 779 0.0779 0.1211
18 2092 0.2092 0.3303
17 5261 0.5261 0.8564
16 11739 1.1739 2.0303
15 24630 2.463 4.4933
14 45188 4.5188 9.0121
13 74606 7.4606 16.4727
12 108397 10.8397 27.3124
11 137971 13.7971 41.1095
10 154834 15.4834 56.5929
9 148033 14.8033 71.3962
8 120731 12.0731 83.4693
7 83521 8.3521 91.8214
6 48140 4.814 96.6354
5 22477 2.2477 98.8831
4 8290 0.829 99.7121
3 2323 0.2323 99.9444
2 505 0.0505 99.9949
1 47 0.0047 99.9996
0 4 0.0004 100

The average hit was: 10.002492
The mode of the dataset was: 10

The "exact" probability is the probability of hitting exactly that many hits, while an "at least" probability is the probability of hitting that many hits or greater.

With a mode of 10, that means Khorne will likely score a whopping 20 points - assuming that there are at least the number of wimpy cultists (or Nurgle warriors) required in every region to accept the hits. Based upon games I've seen, it's not unusual to have at least 2 or 3 cultists in 6 different regions, especially with the new rat infestation.

By playing 2 pts per region, it limits this to 12 pts instead of 20, since the "house" is on Khorne's side.

For those of you who are still reading this boring post, here's the result set of 12 dice (2 dice * 6 bloodletters) and 1,000,000 rolls:

hits times rolled exact % at least%
18 7 0.0007 0.0007
17 24 0.0024 0.0031
16 95 0.0095 0.0126
15 294 0.0294 0.042
14 1077 0.1077 0.1497
13 3492 0.3492 0.4989
12 9780 0.978 1.4769
11 24507 2.4507 3.9276
10 52384 5.2384 9.166
9 95509 9.5509 18.7169
8 146682 14.6682 33.3851
7 182922 18.2922 51.6773
6 185695 18.5695 70.2468
5 148093 14.8093 85.0561
4 91441 9.1441 94.2002
3 41733 4.1733 98.3735
2 13439 1.3439 99.7174
1 2594 0.2594 99.9768
0 232 0.0232 100

The average hit was: 6.666276
The mode of the dataset was: 6

The mode is 6, thus it is likely that even without the +1 die upgrade, Khorne would score 12 points.

And here's the actual results of me personally rolling 1,000,000 times while playing Khorne, regardless of the number of dice:

hits times rolled exact % at least%
0 1000000 100 100

Draw your conclusion.

Thanks for listening!
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Joseph Cochran
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Khorne chain-exploding will always be OP. The balance to the game is based in part on his odds: if he breaks those odds the game will be broken. I won a game as Khorne that I had no business winning because I was able to get 7 hits on two dice (all necessary as he'd overloaded the region) to stop Tzeentch from ruining Norsca for a point win, allowing me to tick to the win on the next turn.

Khorne in our Rat games has been hamstrung every time: we're mixing both sets of Old World cards and they're coming up Hose Khorne a lot (though with Morrsleib they're coming up "hose everyone" a lot too...). But even when he's not hamstrung he still feels pretty balanced to us: the same tactics that you use to prevent him from ticking to the win can be used to mitigate his number of kills (and of course the odds should still do so if the balance is right).

I think personally my group still doesn't have the feel of it, but we're willing to see how the balance is over time...
 
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tommh wrote:
It's actually much worse (or better depending on your point of view) then your thinking: the bloodletter only has to be present!

But WHEN does he have to be present? Maybe other gods can prevent gaining points from this upgrade simply by killing all Bloodletters in region. It's quite common and someone can say that region no longer contains even a single Bloodletter after battle.

 
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Joel Schuster
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Nit picking. The upgrade needs you to kill other figures for scoring VP, it doesnt need you to survive the battle.

You kill a figure the moment you assign enough hits for it to match its defense value. It may still fight back and thus only gets 'removed' at the end of battle phase. But you kill it by assigning hits and thats what the upgrades preliminary is.
 
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Mr Suplex
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After playing 10+ games with the new rules, I've only seen Khorne pull off the VP win once (we use interpretation B). Our group is very good at denying Khorne double ticks in the first two turns and so almost every time the Khorne player is left needing to go for points so this upgrade is chosen. Khorne is always in the running for the VP win when he takes this, but he still can't seem to outpace the guys ruining regions later in the game. But we still have a close eye on how this one is interpreted in the FAQ because the potential is obviously there with good dice rolls on Khorne's part.
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Paul Sinkovits
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We had started with interpretation B) and then switched to interpretation A) out of necessity to give the other players a chance. Khorne had been an untouchable victor for our first 5 or 6 games.

Now with about 15 games under our belt and I will admit that Khorne's initial advantage is fading and I could possibly see switching my interpretation back to B) after a couple more plays.

Our slower learning curve for all the other god's is finally catching up with Khorne. Tzeentch's ability to screw with Khorne was the turning point for us, but the other god's are all starting to show great potential.

If anyone else is distressed by Khorne forever slaughtering you, don't despair! You're probably just not playing the other god's good enough. They have the potential. Have fun figuring it out! shake
 
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Mr Suplex
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Paul210 wrote:
We had started with interpretation B) and then switched to interpretation A) out of necessity to give the other players a chance. Khorne had been an untouchable victor for our first 5 or 6 games.

Now with about 15 games under our belt and I will admit that Khorne's initial advantage is fading and I could possibly see switching my interpretation back to B) after a couple more plays.

Our slower learning curve for all the other god's is finally catching up with Khorne. Tzeentch's ability to screw with Khorne was the turning point for us, but the other god's are all starting to show great potential.

If anyone else is distressed by Khorne forever slaughtering you, don't despair! You're probably just not playing the other god's good enough. They have the potential. Have fun figuring it out! shake


Yeah, if anything I think Khorne has a harder time once a group is experienced with the game.
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