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Subject: Pillbox questions rss

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Miikka Sohlman
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Rulez wrote:
30.3 Pillbox TEM ... is cumulative with Hindrances and SMOKE.
Does that mean, if the PB is in an orchard hex, that it gets +1 hindrance in addition to the PB TEM? My gut instinct says no, but then I started to think that why not if it's a separate location within the hex.

If not, then all I have to say to the person who wrote that rule is: "well, duh!".


Rulez wrote:
30.5 ROUT & RALLY: ... a broken unit inside a pillbox is never forced to rout (even though it can be made DM in the normal manner).
Does this mean that the brokies are immune to the "broken unit cannot end a RtPh ADJACENT to a known enemy unit?" -rule. In otherwords, If I stand over a Pillbox are the broken units inside safe or not? If yes, do I have to deal with them in CC?


Could someone write a short example of how to typically deal with a pillbox with infantry only (other than shooting at it from afar within the CA)? I'm not quite sure what is allowed and what is not. I gather that once in the same hex the only way to deal with it is CC?
Sounds messy. I'm thinking of just leaving guards and waiting for them to come out
 
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Mark Evans
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Question #1: A6.7 mentions a couple of times that the shot has to go through the hex to be a hindrance, so I am going to say that in hex hindrances don't affect shots involving the pillbox.

Question #2: Broken units can remain adjacent to enemy units standing outside the pillbox. That's the way I have been reading that.

Question #3: How does one deal with pillboxes? There are a few ways to deal with them.

AVOIDANCE: If the pillbox can be avoided on your way to the victory conditions, consider this option.

FIREPOWER: Put lots of bullets on it. Decent leadership and lots of firepower can make the +5 TEM of a concrete pillbox seem inadquate. 30fp +5 TEM is equivalent to 8fp no TEM.

SMOKE: If you can obscure the pillbox long enough, you will marginalize its effect on the game and also make it vulnerable to Close Combat.

CLOSE COMBAT: This isn't such a bad option. Remember that units in the pillbox can't see and shoot at units in the same hex. Nobody gets locked in melee. Generally the units in the pillbox can be ambushed easier but other than that neither side has the advantage.
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Brian Roundhill
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1. I think it is just written that way to be crystal clear. In hex TEM does not apply, hindrances and SMOKE still apply.

2. I have always played that they are not required to rout, nor are they eliminated for failure to rout.

3. Pillboxes can be tough to crack, especially as part of a defensive network. Use SMOKE, SMOKE, with a side helping of SMOKE. Try not to approach a pillbox from its CA - come at it from its side instead. AP fired from a large enough Gun does not get the pillbox TEM on its TH roll. Once in hex, CC and DCs are deadly. Or just roll a CH with a 150 HE attack.
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Robin Reeve
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Mark is right : terrain hindrances never affect units in the hex and brokies can remain in the PB even if there are enemy units in the PB hex.


Additional tactical advice : you can enter the PB hex through its NCA, so the occupants cannot Defensive First Fire against you.


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Miikka Sohlman
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Thanks for the tactical tips guys. Still looking for some rule details:

If my dudez are standing outside the pillbox, does the CC happen automatically in the CC phase or do I declare if I want to fight or not? Because I got the impression that one cannot actually advance into the PB location if there are enemies inside, so instead the CC is fought "interlocationally" (they are inside, my dudez are outside).

What about during his turn? Can he declare he wants to have a CC, or must he advance out first?
 
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Mark Evans
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It says CC is resolved in the normal manner. Each party may decline to attack, but it may not refuse to be attacked.
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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drmark64 wrote:
It says CC is resolved in the normal manner.
Yeah, but what is "normal manner"? I can't recall other situations where units are in different locations and can make decisions about whether to CC or not. "Normally" a unit advances into a location containing an enemy unit and the CC will happen no questions asked.

I may be wrong though but this seems like a unique situation to me. Units are in different locations and all I get from the rules is that a CC is possible and "it's resolved normally" leaving out if the CC happens automatically or if it is a decision.

Edit:
drmark64 wrote:
Each party may decline to attack, but it may not refuse to be attacked.
Hmm, I might have interpreted this wrong. Did you mean that of course they are under the CC marker but whether each side wants to attack (why wouldn't they) is up to them?
 
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Brian Roundhill
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Hipsu wrote:
drmark64 wrote:
It says CC is resolved in the normal manner.
Yeah, but what is "normal manner"? I can't recall other situations where units are in different locations and can make decisions about whether to CC or not. "Normally" a unit advances into a location containing an enemy unit and the CC will happen no questions asked.

I may be wrong though but this seems like a unique situation to me. Units are in different locations and all I get from the rules is that a CC is possible and "it's resolved normally" leaving out if the CC happens automatically or if it is a decision.

It is a unique situation, and is resolved as if the pillbox units were not in the pillbox. CC occurs automatically, no decision occurs. Only difference is no Hand-to-Hand or Melee.
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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Hipsu wrote:
drmark64 wrote:
It says CC is resolved in the normal manner.
Yeah, but what is "normal manner"? I can't recall other situations where units are in different locations and can make decisions about whether to CC or not. "Normally" a unit advances into a location containing an enemy unit and the CC will happen no questions asked.

I may be wrong though but this seems like a unique situation to me. Units are in different locations and all I get from the rules is that a CC is possible and "it's resolved normally" leaving out if the CC happens automatically or if it is a decision.

You're right, I can't think of any other case where this happens, either.

As Mark says, you have to resolve it. However, no Melee ever occurs, so anybody can just "walk away" next turn (if they have a path, of course).

S
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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Thanks, I edited my post to ask for clarification but I already got answered. Good. For all this time I thought that enemies can coexist within the same hex (because different locations) without a mandatory CC and the attacker can decide if he wants to CC with the PB or not.
Apparently it can be dangerous to just advance to the same hex.
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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Hipsu wrote:
Thanks, I edited my post to ask for clarification but I already got answered. Good. For all this time I thought that enemies can coexist within the same hex (because different locations) without a mandatory CC and the attacker can decide if he wants to CC with the PB or not.
Apparently it can be dangerous to just advance to the same hex.

Sure can be, but you can stack the Ambush in your favor pretty easily, starting with +2 for Pillbox. If you can keep ? and/or bring a leader... Can get ugly for the defenders REAL quick.

This is theory, of course, I suck with pillboxes for or against me.

S
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Robin Reeve
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What is cool, is to spray the PB with a FT from its NCA.
You apply the NCA TEM (+5 or +7) but you take no risks being fired back by the PB guys... and 24FP +5 is like 6FP at +0 and 24FP at +7 is like 2FP at 0.
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Spencer Armstrong
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Robin wrote:
What is cool, is to spray the PB with a FT from its NCA.
You apply the NCA TEM (+5 or +7) but you take no risks being fired back by the PB guys... and 24FP +5 is like 6FP at +0 and 24FP at +7 is like 2FP at 0.

Would you really take a 2- with X10 with a weapon that normally puts out 12-/24-?

The 6- I could definitely see in some situations.

S
 
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Mark Evans
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Robin wrote:
What is cool, is to spray the PB with a FT from its NCA.
You apply the NCA TEM (+5 or +7) but you take no risks being fired back by the PB guys... and 24FP +5 is like 6FP at +0 and 24FP at +7 is like 2FP at 0.

It's only cool if you are holding the flamethrower. I lost my Forward Observer that way. soblue
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J. R. Tracy
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Something to keep in mind if Pillbox Control is part of the victory conditions: since the Attacker is *outside* the Pillbox during Close combat, even if he wins the Close Combat he does not yet Control the Pillbox. He must Move/Advance into it during a later player turn (unless of course he won an Ambush, in which case he may Withdraw into the Pillbox). This can be important when you're timing your final rush - you want to be there *before* the last turn.

JR

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Miikka Sohlman
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jrtracy wrote:
Something to keep in mind if Pillbox Control is part of the victory conditions: since the Attacker is *outside* the Pillbox during Close combat, even if he wins the Close Combat he does not yet Control the Pillbox. He must Move/Advance into it during a later player turn (unless of course he won an Ambush, in which case he may Withdraw into the Pillbox). This can be important when you're timing your final rush - you want to be there *before* the last turn.

JR

I see....
 
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Bill Jelinek
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Hipsu wrote:

Could someone write a short example of how to typically deal with a pillbox with infantry only (other than shooting at it from afar within the CA)? I'm not quite sure what is allowed and what is not. I gather that once in the same hex the only way to deal with it is CC?

Another means of dealing with pillboxes is to fire AP/APCR/APDS (of sufficient caliber) at them.

B30.35 "AP: Neither the CA nor the NCA Defense Modification applies to an AP/APCR/APDS attack against a pillbox/its-contents, provided the Basic TK# of that ammo type being fired is > twice the Defense Modification that would otherwise apply."

Such hits are resolved using normal HE-Equivalency rules (see C8.31).

Granted, the HE-equivalency attacks aren't too high-powered, but they will be with 0 TEM.

Just another tool for your ASL toolbelt.
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Robin Reeve
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:
Would you really take a 2- with X10 with a weapon that normally puts out 12-/24-?
I would hesitate, but using a FT without risking the -1 DRM for the bearer is tempting...
 
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Robin Reeve
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wgjelinek wrote:
Another means of dealing with pillboxes is to fire AP/APCR/APDS (of sufficient caliber) at them.
Sure : that is what I use most of the time.
However, Hipsu was asking about "Infantry only" tactics.
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Spencer Armstrong
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Binko wrote:
Another clever trick is to kindle the hex the pillbox is in if the terrain is burnable. B25.4 says that the occupants of a pillbox are fully effected by any blaze in their hex. So they have to leave the hex or be eliminated.

Basically, in ASL, just like in real combat, pillboxes are deathtraps if enemy infantry can get to their rear. They are only effective as part of a strong prepared defensive position.

Well said. In my experience, Bunkers (i.e. w/trenches) are much more useful than "naked" pillboxes.

Robin wrote:
Spencer Armstrong wrote:
Would you really take a 2- with X10 with a weapon that normally puts out 12-/24-?
I would hesitate, but using a FT without risking the -1 DRM for the bearer is tempting...

Fair enough. I'd have to be pretty desperate.

S
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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Robin wrote:
However, Hipsu was asking about "Infantry only" tactics.
It's ok. I'm pretty informed already. As far as I'm concerned this threat is open to all things pillbox.
 
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Lee Kennedy
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Roundhill wrote:
It is a unique situation, and is resolved as if the pillbox units were not in the pillbox. CC occurs automatically, no decision occurs. Only difference is no Hand-to-Hand or Melee.
Just remember that there can't be any friendly (to the pillbox units) units in the hex outside the pillbox (B30.6). If there are you have to take them in CC and then take out the pillbox guys on a later turn.
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Miikka Sohlman
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If both players set up on the board, Can the PB set up Hidden in open ground and is it only revealed once both players have done their setup if there's LOS to it?

And can anyone explain IRL terms why everything inside the PB are revealed once a single HS fires out of it?

If I shoot at the PB while the contents are still HIP, do I shoot at full FP and reveal everyone with a PIN or better result?
 
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Martí Cabré

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Binko wrote:
Another clever trick is to kindle the hex the pillbox is in if the terrain is burnable. B25.4 says that the occupants of a pillbox are fully effected by any blaze in their hex. So they have to leave the hex or be eliminated.

Basically, in ASL, just like in real combat, pillboxes are deathtraps if enemy infantry can get to their rear. They are only effective as part of a strong prepared defensive position.

But then you would concede control of the hex and its locations.
 
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Brian Roundhill
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Hipsu wrote:
If both players set up on the board, Can the PB set up Hidden in open ground and is it only revealed once both players have done their setup if there's LOS to it?

Outside of PTO, all Fortifications, PB included, may set up Hidden, and are then revealed with LOS.

Hipsu wrote:

And can anyone explain IRL terms why everything inside the PB are revealed once a single HS fires out of it?

I am not sure if everyone is revealed, but everyone is considered Known. That represents the fact that units know the pillbox is active, even if they do not know the full strength inside the pillbox.

Hipsu wrote:

If I shoot at the PB while the contents are still HIP, do I shoot at full FP and reveal everyone with a PIN or better result?

Yep. Full FP, ?/HIP removed with a PTC or better. Until then, you could be firing at an abandoned pillbox.
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