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Subject: Vampire SP vs Sorcerers in SW rss

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Eduard Bondarenko
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In SW Sorcerers substitute single active tokens only in adjacent regions, while reading the description of Vampires in SWU I haven't found any word restricting a race with a Vampire SP to substitute any single active token all over the map, irrespective of whether the region is adjacent or not. Am i right?
 
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Bryan Stout
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Wow, I hadn't noticed that! The Vampire description does not mention anything about adjacency; neither does Shiny Orb's. A curious omission. Perhaps it is deliberate, since the rules for conquest (p.6) emphasize the need for adjacency, and the Vampire and Orb powers discuss a new way of conquering but say nothing about where the conquering is done.

At any rate I am certain that adjacency is still required. First, the adjacency rules (as all the rules) are assumed to hold unless explicitly contradicted, and Vampire and Orb do not contradict that, while Flying Doormat does. Second, if Vampire was allowed anywhere on the board, it would essentially also be including the Flying special power as a whole, while also giving it substitution-conquest powers, which I really doubt they would want to do.
 
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Bart
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Region must be adjacent.
 
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Mychal
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edis wrote:
In SW Sorcerers substitute single active tokens only in adjacent regions, while reading the description of Vampires in SWU I haven't found any word restricting a race with a Vampire SP to substitute any single active token all over the map, irrespective of whether the region is adjacent or not. Am i right?


It's true that the rules never use the word adjacent, but it does say 'conquer a region', so I think that implies that you must follow your race's rules for conquering.
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Mychal
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Oh, man. Didn't realize I was late to reply on this one. You guys are fast!
 
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Eduard Bondarenko
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Yep, on the page 6 it is said that "newly conquered regions must be adjacent", but there is also said that "unless permitted otherwise by the race and SP combo". Vampire SP does not say anything about adjacency; therefore does not restricts on distant conquests.

But i rather agree with you that "flying" and "substitution" for Vampire SP shall make them too perfect
 
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Fred
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I hadn't noticed that either!

Well, it would make sense: vampires usually do fly!

Also, when compared to Sorcerers, Vampires is actualy much less powerful due to the fact that it will only work if you have previously lost some tokens (or with a race like skeletons). Thus, it will probably prove useless on the turn you enter the board.
 
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Moisés Solé
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No, you enter the board, and from that moment you can use your power, so you can still save tokens (conquering a zone with one enemy active token with a single vampire instead of three)

And everyone fear Vampire Sorcerers and their "twice per opponent per turn..." ability.

EDIT: And the rules are OK, conquests are adjacent unless allowed otherwise. The vampire description doesn't allow otherwise (just because it doesn't reinforce the rule doesn't mean it allows otherwise), therefore, only to adjacent regions.
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michael ray
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I'm assuming they left out the adjacency bit due to the confusion over flying sorcerers. Which was originally included to stop this discussion from happening.
 
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Fred
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Yeah, I understand that you can conquer 1 territory with only one token on your first turn! But if that's the Vampire power only use, I find that pretty lame!
Against good players, I already think the sorcerer ability is hard to use (past the turn you enter the board) or at least very situational, but if what you say is true, then the Vampire power is even more situational!
 
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Bryan Stout
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lillumultipass wrote:
Yeah, I understand that you can conquer 1 territory with only one token on your first turn! But if that's the Vampire power only use, I find that pretty lame!
Against good players, I already think the sorcerer ability is hard to use (past the turn you enter the board) or at least very situational, but if what you say is true, then the Vampire power is even more situational!

If I understand you, you have it backwards. Vampires & Sorcerers do not use their power on their first region, but can use it in every conquest after that. So you could still do it once per opponent that first turn.

And yes, you can use the Vampire on your first turn, as long as it's against singleton tokens. The token you replace it with comes from your hand, not the box, so you are not increasing your numbers. But you are decreasing your opponents' numbers. And ignoring all terrain and other defensive costs to that conquest.
 
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Fred
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It seems I was not clear then: I perfectly know that it can be used once per turn every turn and not only on the first region conquered.
However, against a good player, passed the surprise of the first turn you enter the board with the Sorcerer, it's very hard to be in a position to use the sorcerer's ability more than once or twice.

So, I stand by my argument: IMO, the main advantage of sorcerers is to be able to grow their numbers, not just make 1 conquest w/ 2 fewer tokens.
If that's what Vampires are all about, I say they are at worst pretty lame, and at best very situational.
But I agree that,for instance, Vampire Skeletons would be a good combo though!
 
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Bryan Stout
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I agree it can be frustrating when no one lets you use your power because they double up. But that is an indirect benefit -- if they double up, they are not grabbing as much territory as they may want.
 
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Fred
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you are right, that's indeed a nice advantage!
What is even more frustrating is when they go into decline soblue

I think my view on Sorcerers may be biased by the fact that I have played many many 2- and 3-player games, but only had twice a 4-player game and never played with 5 players.

Of course, I know a friend who got the sorcerers against the Pixies!
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Aernout Casier
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My SWU clearly states for both the Shiny Orb and Vampire that the region you use the power on has to be adjacent.
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Jan Adam
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AernoutMJC wrote:
My SWU clearly states for both the Shiny Orb and Vampire that the region you use the power on has to be adjacent.


Mine does not, and I came here just to ask the question that has been answered here.

I think that it is logical that the use of the Shiny Orb and Vampire SP to substitute a token to conquer the region must obey the normal rules for conquering for the particular race.

So, in case of a hypothetical race that cannot e.g. conquer muddy regions, you could never use the Vampire SP or Shiny Orb to substitute-conquer it.

So vampires can conquer only adjacent by substitution, and unless you are using the SW Flying SP, the same is true for the Shiny Orb.
 
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Ragnar Iceblood
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Barliman wrote:
lillumultipass wrote:
Yeah, I understand that you can conquer 1 territory with only one token on your first turn! But if that's the Vampire power only use, I find that pretty lame!
Against good players, I already think the sorcerer ability is hard to use (past the turn you enter the board) or at least very situational, but if what you say is true, then the Vampire power is even more situational!

If I understand you, you have it backwards. Vampires & Sorcerers do not use their power on their first region, but can use it in every conquest after that. So you could still do it once per opponent that first turn.

And yes, you can use the Vampire on your first turn, as long as it's against singleton tokens. The token you replace it with comes from your hand, not the box, so you are not increasing your numbers. But you are decreasing your opponents' numbers. And ignoring all terrain and other defensive costs to that conquest.


It comes from the box.

SWU rules wrote:
Vampire
Once per turn per opponent, your Vampire
tokens can conquer a Region by substituting
one of your opponent's Active tokens with
one of your own Vampire tokens, taken
from the storage tray (or your hand, if none are left in the tray).

The token your Vampire replaces must be the only race token
in its Region. A single opponent token in a Black Mountain
Region, in a Region with the Keep on the Motherland, and a
single opponent token protected by Mushroom Armor all still
count as Regions with a single token for this purpose, and may
thus be vampirized. A Region containing a single Gnome token
is protected however. Place the substituted opponent's Race
token back into the storage tray. If an Immortal token is
vampirized, its token is lost and placed back into the tray.
 
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Bryan Stout
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warlin wrote:
Barliman wrote:
...And yes, you can use the Vampire on your first turn, as long as it's against singleton tokens. The token you replace it with comes from your hand, not the box, so you are not increasing your numbers. But you are decreasing your opponents' numbers. And ignoring all terrain and other defensive costs to that conquest.

It comes from the box.

I was talking above about one's first turn, when all the tokens would be in your hand.

Now, if you don't have all the tokens at the start of the race's first turn -- usually because the special power's token count is less than 5 -- then I agree, they would come from the box until they run out, and then from the hand, as stated in the rule you quoted and bolded.
 
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Ragnar Iceblood
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Barliman wrote:
warlin wrote:
Barliman wrote:
...And yes, you can use the Vampire on your first turn, as long as it's against singleton tokens. The token you replace it with comes from your hand, not the box, so you are not increasing your numbers. But you are decreasing your opponents' numbers. And ignoring all terrain and other defensive costs to that conquest.

It comes from the box.

I was talking above about one's first turn, when all the tokens would be in your hand.

Now, if you don't have all the tokens at the start of the race's first turn -- usually because the special power's token count is less than 5 -- then I agree, they would come from the box until they run out, and then from the hand, as stated in the rule you quoted and bolded.


Then we are in agreement sir!
 
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