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Thunderstone: Dragonspire» Forums » Rules

Subject: reshuffling discard to create a new deck - Trap: Dragon's Jaw rss

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M.C.Crispy
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I only have Dragonspire, but I'm posting here as it's a general rules question rather than a specific one about Dragonspire.

The rulebook that I'm reading says that you only reshuffle your discards to form a new deck when you need to draw a card and the deck is empty. The terminology seems to mean that "draw" means "take from the top of the deck into your hand" - whereas "reveal" means "take from the top of the deck into your discards" (except when talking about revealing your hand).

So, if I have a card that requires all players to reveal until some criterion is met and a player's deck becomes exhausted before that criterion is met, does that player have to reshuffle the discards to create a new deck?

Logically I'd say "yes", but the rules seem to indicate "no". I can't figure out the spirit/intent of the rules being phrased the way that they are and I haven't found any clarification.

The card that triggered this is Draconic Trap: Dragon's Jaw - Each player, starting with the player to the active player's left, reveals a card from his deck. If it is a Weapon, destroy it. Continue until 3 Weapons have been destroyed. But I'm assuming that other expansions that contain traps might have a similiar issue.
 
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Martin Smith
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Yes - you would shuffle and carry on drawing until the criteria for the Dragonic Trap is met.
 
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D. Silberman
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The only thing I would add is that you reveal cards from the top of your deck by laying them out in front of you and only transfer them to your discard pile after the trap, or other card, effect has run its course. So everyone draws and places in front of them until three weapons have been destroyed and only then moves the drawn cards to their discard pile. This prevents endless deck cycling when there aren't enough weapons to fulfill the condition.

There has been some discussion on these forums about whether cards revealed from your deck get returned to the deck if the trap or other card doesn't explicitly say to discard them. The developer posts actually suggest returning them back where they came from (i.e. the top of your deck) in the absence of explicit card text but we play that they are always discarded because there just doesn't seem to be any good reason to do otherwise. Why should a trap that destroys a bunch of your weapons or heroes have the side effect of letting you know what everyone's next hand will be?
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M.C.Crispy
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Basingstoke
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Zelide wrote:
The only thing I would add is that you reveal cards from the top of your deck by laying them out in front of you and only transfer them to your discard pile after the trap, or other card, effect has run its course. So everyone draws and places in front of them until three weapons have been destroyed and only then moves the drawn cards to their discard pile. This prevents endless deck cycling when there aren't enough weapons to fulfill the condition.
I don't see the value of this approach and I don't like the potential risk of drawing into your hand as you look through for a weapon. I really don't see there being a risk of "endless deck recycling" - more likely is once through the Deck followed by a shuffle and partial trawl through the Deck on the second pass. Nevertheless, I appreciate your insight and thank you for it.

Quote:
There has been some discussion on these forums about whether cards revealed from your deck get returned to the deck if the trap or other card doesn't explicitly say to discard them. The developer posts actually suggest returning them back where they came from (i.e. the top of your deck) in the absence of explicit card text but we play that they are always discarded because there just doesn't seem to be any good reason to do otherwise. Why should a trap that destroys a bunch of your weapons or heroes have the side effect of letting you know what everyone's next hand will be?
no way are those cards going back on top of the Deck! I agree with you on this one.

It seems to me that the developers could clarify what they mean by the terms "Draw" and "Reveal" along with a clear definition of the trigger for a shuffle, specifically using the terms Reveal and/or Draw in that definition. I really wish I understood exactly what they were trying to achieve with the requirement for delaying a shuffle until a card is needed for a Draw (and possibly for a Reveal, we again need clarity).
 
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Martin Smith
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Why on earth would you lay the cards in front of you and not put in your discard pile ? Don't know where you are getting this idea from.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Flamehearted wrote:
Why on earth would you lay the cards in front of you and not put in your discard pile ? Don't know where you are getting this idea from.
ah, you spotted the elephant in the room. I had ignored it, but now you've drawn attention to it, it becomes fair game

I agree, what possible value would there ever be in Revealing into your Hand? Cards are either in your Discard, in your Deck, or in your Hand; there is no other location. Having a temporary storage area on the table in front of you when your Hand has already been laid out is asking for the occasional "mishap". No, far better to Reveal to the Discard and avoid unpleasant discusssions about what was originally in your Hand before the Reveal started.
 
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Kelly Overholser
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Flamehearted wrote:
Why on earth would you lay the cards in front of you and not put in your discard pile ? Don't know where you are getting this idea from.


Mainly because, if you have to shuffle your discard pile because your deck has run out, you don't shuffle the cards you're currently revealing into the deck as well; they stay out until you're done revealing cards. Putting them in the discard pile, then, is only asking for someone to accidentally shuffle everything together again.
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You reveal one card at a time, either destroy or discard it. If you empty your deck before the criteria is met, reshuffle and continue. That's all there is to it.
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M.C.Crispy
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See, now that's interesting! The two last posts have opposite, but individually logical positions. The first forces you to ultimately go through all the cards in your deck by revealing the deck onto a "reveal pile" (first the deck, then the shuffled discard pile). The second allows the possibility that some cards may be "protected" by the shuffle of the revealed cards from the deck with those that were already in the discard - protected because somebody else reveals the target card before you do

I prefer the second option because I like the simplicity of "reveal: either discard or destroy", I don't really get the need for a reveal pile. Though I can see that there's an argument for a virtual reveal pile because you do really "reveal to the table" rather than "reveal to the discard"
 
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D. Silberman
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There are actually a few situations where revealing directly into the discard piles can cause players to endlessly cycle through their decks. We had a game where the Dragon's Jaw trap appeared early on and both players had all of their daggers in their hands. Dragon's Jaw reads:

"Each player, starting with the player to the active player's left, reveals a card from his deck. If it is a Weapon, destroy it. Continue until 3 Weapons have been destroyed."

If we had revealed into our discard piles, we could have kept revealing and reshuffling forever without hitting any weapons.

I believe that Dominion, which shares many mechanics with Thunderstone, is far more explicit in its rules and cards when it comes to revealing (multiple revealed cards are revealed to the table first and then discarded as a group) as well as whether revealed cards go to the discard pile or back to the top of the deck when you're finished with the effect in question.

On other forums here, publisher representatives have advocated returning revealed Thunderstone cards back where they came from in the absence of any text to the contrary. For example, the Dragon's Jaw trap above would have players reveal to the table until the weapons are destroyed and then put the revealed cards back on their decks without changing card order. While I don't really like this idea for Thunderstone, especially without the rules being explicit about it, it does make some of these effects even nastier. Destroy some weapons from your deck and return the remaining cards back to the deck and you're pretty much guaranteed to not have any weapons in your next hand.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Zelide wrote:
There are actually a few situations where revealing directly into the discard piles can cause players to endlessly cycle through their decks. We had a game where the Dragon's Jaw trap appeared early on and both players had all of their daggers in their hands. Dragon's Jaw reads:

"Each player, starting with the player to the active player's left, reveals a card from his deck. If it is a Weapon, destroy it. Continue until 3 Weapons have been destroyed."

If we had revealed into our discard piles, we could have kept revealing and reshuffling forever without hitting any weapons.
An interesting point, though I'm sure somebody would notice that they'd been through their entire non-hand cards without discarding - and therefore there was no point going through again.

I think that there may well be a justification for defining "reveal" to mean taking one or more cards and laying them face up on the table in front of you without adding them to your revealed hand.
 
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Zelannii Zelannii
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"Reveal" is essentially "draw, then put in play in front of you, then follow effect results, then discard all cards not put in hand or trash by the effecting played card/trap/etc" Reveal is always a draw, and if your deck is empty, you shuffle your discard and keep going.

The cards are not "in play" per the rules when revealed, but when revealing "until" all the cards revealed are kept togehter "until" the condition is met, in limbo, and have not yet hit the discard pile. The identical process applies in Dominion if you play that game as well.

If you reveal in a loop, all those revealed cards are still "held", so it's possible to need to shuffle your discard pile, then go all the way through the formed deck revealing every card, and have both an empty discard pile and deck with all the cards currently revealed, and still not satisfy a condition completely, so either way you stop, and resolve what you can. Your HAND is never part of a reveal cycle unless it says "reveal from your hand" in which case you don;t touch the deck or discard.

For example, a card might say "reveal from your deck until you find 2 light sources and destroy them" If you have but 3 lights total, and 2 are in your hand, you could never meet this condition. What would happen is all the cards would be revealed (except your hand) you would trash the one light so reveled, then put all cards other than your hand in the discard pile. These cards were never "in play" so if there exist any such effect as in "when disacarded from play do X" those do NOT trigger on a reveal run.

Cards revealed that don't end up going into your hand or trash (depending on the reason for revealing) always go to the discard pile, but not until the condition is met, or can't be met.
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Jeff Engel

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mccrispy wrote:
Flamehearted wrote:
Why on earth would you lay the cards in front of you and not put in your discard pile ? Don't know where you are getting this idea from.
ah, you spotted the elephant in the room. I had ignored it, but now you've drawn attention to it, it becomes fair game

I agree, what possible value would there ever be in Revealing into your Hand? Cards are either in your Discard, in your Deck, or in your Hand; there is no other location. Having a temporary storage area on the table in front of you when your Hand has already been laid out is asking for the occasional "mishap". No, far better to Reveal to the Discard and avoid unpleasant discusssions about what was originally in your Hand before the Reveal started.


Bold within quote is mine... Treasures stay in a "separate" location on the board, so this isn't exactly correct. I still haven't seen a real clarification of "revealing" from anyone. We also played that trap that the cards are discarded, only because it seemed like it made sense in the context. That being said, "revealing" in Magic: The Gathering, for instance, does not change the location of the card unless it says so, so I'm not sure why this would be different since the rules don't say one way or the other.
 
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