Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Levée en Masse» Forums » Rules

Subject: A few more rules questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
John New
United States
Accokeek, Maryland/
New York, NY
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm enjoying learning this game, and I'd like to congratulate the designer on the direct and straightforward writing of the Rules (and I do), as well as on an exciting game. Nevertheless, I have a few questions re the Rules.

Victory Conditions: If a foreign army (or the Vendee) occupies Paris when there is at least one Blue card in the draw pile, it is a crushing defeat. Likewise, if an army occupies Paris when there is at least one White card in the draw pile, it is a decisive defeat (I'm with you so far). But what if an army occupies Paris when there are Red cards left in the draw pile? Rule 9.3 states that there might be a victory if all of the Red cards are played and Paris is unoccupied, depending on the VP total. On the other hand, Rule 9.3.5 states that you subtract the number of remaining Red cards left in the draw pile when calculating VPs. Does that occur when an army occupies Paris in the Red deck phase, triggering the end of the game? (even if there's only one card left?). Can there ever be a victory if Paris is occupied by an army of the enemies of the Revolution? Seems unlikely, but this is confusing.

Second; Rule 5.1 (paragraph 1) states that DRMs do not apply to the liberated forces defending against an army's attempt to conquer a space with a Liberation marker. Yet the remaining paragraphs of 5.1 refer to a "modified" result of the die roll. If DRMS do not apply, then what is "modifying" the result, and how?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rodolphe Duhil
France
Rambouillet
Ile-de-France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
blueshark wrote:
But what if an army occupies Paris when there are Red cards left in the draw pile?

My version of the French rules has been amended in April and [9.3] says now: "If at least one red Headline card has been played and Paris is not occupied, the “Republican Experiment” may have succeeded and you might have won the game."
If Paris is occupied, you lose (defeat). If I remember correctly, John Welch made this correction on CSW. And nobody had caught this before April...

blueshark wrote:
Second; Rule 5.1 (paragraph 1) states that DRMs do not apply to the liberated forces defending against an army's attempt to conquer a space with a Liberation marker. Yet the remaining paragraphs of 5.1 refer to a "modified" result of the die roll. If DRMS do not apply, then what is "modifying" the result, and how?

I'd say it's another oversight. The sentences should then be reworded by removing "modified".

It's always great to see what a fresh look to rules can bring, no matter how many people worked on them or made the proofreading.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John New
United States
Accokeek, Maryland/
New York, NY
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the answers, Rodolphe.

So do I understand this to mean that the player can elect to end the game anytime after the first red card is drawn (and then do the VP calculations)? This might be a good move if the enemies are beating at the gates of Paris, but it seems a little bit like gamesmanship to me. What other events (other then enemy armies in Paris) can bring the game to an end with Red cards still undrawn?

Je suis un avocat, bien sur, et les reglements sont tous.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rodolphe Duhil
France
Rambouillet
Ile-de-France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You're welcome, John

No, you don't choose when to end the game. It would be too easy!
See 9.0 : The game ends in defeat when either Paris falls (see 8.1) or possible victory when the red deck is exhausted. (emphasis mine)

You have to play any red cards left in the draw pile.
9.3 should be reworded. Somewhat like this: "If all the red Headline cards have been played (the deck is exhausted) and Paris is not occupied,the “Republican Experiment” may have succeeded and you might have won the game."

Un avocat a l'habitude de repérer les failles dans un texte pour l'utiliser à son avantage.


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John New
United States
Accokeek, Maryland/
New York, NY
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, I understand that. And I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse here - but if you play either until Paris is occupied (and you lose) or until the red deck is exhausted; then why would you "subtract the number of red cards remaining in the Draw Pile" (Rule 9.3.5) for purposes of victory point determination? If one plays until the Red Draw Pile is exhausted, wouldn't this always be "0"?

I guess I'm easily confused.

Messire wrote:
Un avocat a l'habitude de repérer les failles dans un texte pour l'utiliser à son avantage.


Qui? Moi? whistle
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Welch
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello John and thanks for writing - again, my hat's off to Rodolphe for getting out the answers to your questions before I even saw them...he is very good like that.

The victory conditions language was 'copied and pasted' one too many times but Rodolphe is correct - most importantly, if Paris is occupied at the end of a card, then the Revolution fails. I liked your notion of 'calling off the Revolution early' I'm sure there were a number of times the Republicans wished they could have done so.

Good catch on the possible confusion caused by using the word 'modified' in Rule 5.1 - I will send in a correction. That's one of the great things about VPG's print-on-demand - minor corrections can be made and the next copy produced will have that correction.

I hope you enjoy the game and don't hesitate to rank, comment, review, post a session report, or ask any additional questions you may have.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Welch
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just missed your last comment - and it is a good one - there is no way to 'end' the game without exhausting the Red (Reactionary) Deck - therefore, I need to remove 9.3.5 from the victory point calculation - I think that would clear things up without needed any other changes...I hope whistle

Again, I think the rules may be a victim of the previous change not getting followed through the rest of the rules to see if there were other changes that needed to be made because of it - and clearly, you've found one - thanks!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John New
United States
Accokeek, Maryland/
New York, NY
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That helps tremendously - thanks to both you and Rodolphe for your help. As I told Rodolphe, I'm an attorney (and a former academic) and so "rules lawyering" comes, well, naturally.

And as for ending the Revolution early, I understand that Claude and Charles Coupé are all for it:






Thanks again.
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike C
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mb
I think it's clear that:

1. If an enemy army occupies Paris then the revolution fails and the game ends in defeat.

2. The game ends only if Paris is occupied during a housekeeping phase or the last red card is played.

2. Rule 9.3.5 is unnecessary since the only way a possible victory can occur is if the red cards are completed.

However, one of the original poster's questions is still unclear. That being to what degree of defeat is it if Paris is occupied and there are red cards remaining. The rules are clear it's a "crushing defeat" if any blue cards remain and a "decisive defeat" if any white cards remain. What type of defeat is it when red cards remain?

A defeat is a defeat of course, but the rules do make it a point to specify to what degree of defeat, except when red cards remain.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Welch
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good question - people do want to know. I would say the best way to determine the level of defeat if Paris is occupied with cards left in the Red deck, go ahead and go through the scoring process and that should give a 'defeat' narrative. Of course if Paris falls, that's really the end of the Republican cause which is the side the player is representing.

Thanks for posting.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike C
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mb
Here's an idea when Paris falls, and only red cards remains: Abdication.

The core members and spirit of the revolution are intact, but forced to flee. The revolution still lives, albeit quelled by the monarchy for the time being. If this happens then another round must must be played, but with a -2 political DRM through the blue card deck. I'm not a rule writer, but something along the lines of the revolution is not dead and must rise up again with some handicaps due to having to return from abdication and rebuild seems plausible.

Nice game. Thank you for your hard work bringing another era in history alive through the States of Siege series.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.