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Subject: Forest House kicks @ss ! rss

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the dare978devil
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Can't believe how powerful it is, first time I ever picked it. And this is without Hacienda as per the updated rules. I ended up with 3 quarry, and 6 forests, along with the library and guesthouse. That was a deadly combination. I was playing against mainly shippers in a 4-person game. I had almost no income, and was second player (normally the worst spot). I settler/quarried every chance I had up until I had 3 quarries. First building I bought was Forest House, and every time someone else settled, I added a forest. Kept going until I had 6 forests. That meant I was getting 6 off every building. The only production building I had was a free small indigo plant (already had the quarry when I bought it). I also acquired a corn plantation on the game's opening Settler/Quarry move.

After acquiring the Forest House, the second building I bought was the Library. It took awhile to acquire the coins, it meant I had to take whichever role had the most coins on it regardless of how harmful it was for me (once picked Captain for 3 with nothing to ship). Library rocks with this strategy! I was getting 2 coins off every building when picking builder, plus the 6 off by the time I had completed my forests. Even better, Prospector was always worth at least 2, usually 3 since no one else was picking it without a buildup of coins. I was getting big buildings for 2! There was no Black Market in this game, which I would have picked to allow for zero coin big-building buying.

I ended up with 3 big buildings (statue, City Hall, Residence), all activated due to my Guest House. I also had Union Hall and Lighthouse which I only bought when I didn't have quite enough to get a big building, although I only used the Union Hall once.

Final score : Me 51, other 3 players.. 28, 25, 17.
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Andy Leber
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I'm the only person in my group who is a fan of it (although nobody else has tried it), and I agree it can be great when everything plays out right.

I have used it very ineffectively on occasion too (like any building).
 
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David Debien
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dare978devil wrote:
That meant I was getting 6 off every building.


Not every building...just 3+ level buidings. But still a pretty awesome combo, I will agree. Only thing to watch out for is the shippers taking all the VP's and ending the game before you get that engine up an running.
 
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Tibs
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Your plan to get 3 quarries was a lucky one, since in a 4-player game you'd be lucky that they'd avoid that role three turns in a row.

And then you'd still have to wait at least 6 rounds to acquire your six forests. Probably a better strategy would have been to get the Library before or during your forest period so you could double down on forests when picking the Settler role.

Looking at those final scores... I don't think it's that the Forest House was particularly powerful, but that the opponents didn't put up much of a fight.
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Jason Weed
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kungfro wrote:
Your plan to get 3 quarries was a lucky one, since in a 4-player game you'd be lucky that they'd avoid that role three turns in a row.

And then you'd still have to wait at least 6 rounds to acquire your six forests. Probably a better strategy would have been to get the Library before or during your forest period so you could double down on forests when picking the Settler role.

Looking at those final scores... I don't think it's that the Forest House was particularly powerful, but that the opponents didn't put up much of a fight.


Agreed, more skilled players wouldn't let this happen. Like starvation in Stone Age, it only works when others are not prepared to deal with it or make much less optimal moves, which would lead to any type of victory.
 
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the dare978devil
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Haha! It's even more powerful than I realized! I could have ended the game much sooner by picking up completely free buildings! The only "free" building I purchased was the Indigo plant, but now I realize that any building in the second column can use 2 of my quarries and any number of forests. I could have been filling holes in my table for nothing while waiting to have sufficient coins to buy a big building. With 4 forests and 2 quarries, the large sugar mill and large indigo plant are both free.

To Tibs : Getting 3 quarries in a 4-person game is very easy. Almost no one deliberately picks up the third quarry, most players stick with just one. They don't want to waste a turn in the early midgame doing the settler/quarry when they could be buying coffee roasters or trading. I could have gotten 4 quarries if I wanted to, but was worried about my strategy. And getting forest house early made sense. I can't remember if I had 4 forests to buy library (think it was only 3, which means 2 counted), but that was one crucial coin off. With the builder role, that's another off, and 2 activated quarries meant it only cost me 4. Since I had no income other than picking roles with coins on them, lowest possible cost was critical.

Getting the library sealed the deal. I could add 2 forests per settler turn by that point, or get 2 coins off any building. I could also get minimum 2 coin from prospector, usually 3 since there was almost always a coin on it when I selected it.
 
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Jason Weed
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Someone once told me, nothing beats a solid Corn strategy, lol. Ha!!!
 
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the dare978devil
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Hate to tell you guys this, but simply put, Forest House is too powerful. Played another 2 games this past weekend, won both with the Forest House. Have perfected the technique:

1). Buy Forest House first build opportunity. If there is a Settler action before you can activate Forest House, then match whatever you start with (either corn or indigo).
2). Regardless of what else you have (even a quarry), man the Forest House before anything else. Settler is chosen often at the start of a game.
3). Every chance you get, Settler/Quarry until you have at least 3 quarries, preferably 4. Always pick a forest if anyone else Settles (until you have 6 forests that is). Also, you can hurt your rivals by picking a plantation they may want (such as the second coffee they wanted for their roaster). You are just going to turn it into a forest anyway, but they can't get it and will be forced to pick something else.
4). After acquiring the Forest House, watch out for any "free" buildings. That means buying any building for which you pay zero coins, regardless of which building it actually is. Target "Black Market" and "Guest House" but only if you don't have to pay any coins for them. They are not required to win, but make it easier.
5). Save all your coins until you can buy Library. Pick any role which has coins on it, even if they are detrimental to you in order to acquire sufficient coins to purchase Library. Activate it immediately, even if it means picking mayor.
6). Acquire 4 quarries (if you can), and 6 forests. If you have matching plantations from round 1 (ie. 2 corn or 2 indigo), then go for only 3 quarries so you get 4 additional VP with Cloister - see below. Once you have library, this becomes very easy. Picking settler nets you 1 quarry + 1 forest, or 2 forests.
7). Buy big buildings until you run out of spaces. With 4 quarries and 6 forests, when you have the library, big buildings only cost 1 coin when you are the builder. It's ridiculous. With Black Market, feel free to trade in anything if you need it (even if you have to trade 1 VP, you immediately get a return of 4VP for any unactivated Big Building and a return of 8VP for Statue. It's better to trade any goods you have, but don't worry if you have to trade VP or a colonist. If you have Guest House, even better because the building can be instantly activated.

This strategy will defeat any shipping strategy simply because it ends the game so fast, no one else has had a chance to set up anything else. My friends have officially "banned" the inclusion of Forest House for future games. As soon as I take it, they feel obligated to now take it, and the game becomes a race for the Big Buildings. Shipping becomes secondary. As a result, they "prefer" the unexpanded game.

One last word : Cloister fits in beautifully with this strategy, it should be the first Big Building you buy. Your 6 forests count as "plantation triplets". If you add 3 quarries, and manage to acquire 2 more of the same type as what you started with (either corn or indigo), Cloister is worth 14 VPs. Even with only 3 triplets (6 forests and at least 3 quarries), it counts for 10 VP which is more than Statues' 8. City Hall is also deadly since you end up with almost all pink buildings.

DD.
 
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the dare978devil
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HAHAHA! Man, I forgot about Church! Church is incredible with this strategy! You can get it for free (it only costs 5 coins) if you have 6 forests, but likely you will have to pay at least 1 coin for it if you are not the Builder. If you are builder with an activated library, then it will almost certainly be free (2 for builder + library, 1 each for 2 quarries, and at least 2 forests).

Every Big Building you take after activating church nets you 2 additional VP. Since you almost always end up with 3 Big Buildings using this strategy, that is 6 VP bonus for the cost of a single coin.
 
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Chris Gibbs
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dare978devil wrote:
HAHAHA! Man, I forgot about Church! Church is incredible with this strategy! You can get it for free (it only costs 5 coins) if you have 6 forests, but likely you will have to pay at least 1 coin for it if you are not the Builder. If you are builder with an activated library, then it will almost certainly be free (2 for builder + library, 1 each for 2 quarries, and at least 2 forests).

Every Big Building you take after activating church nets you 2 additional VP. Since you almost always end up with 3 Big Buildings using this strategy, that is 6 VP bonus for the cost of a single coin.

Yeah I was gonna say, especially in the 3 player game the Forest House + Library + 3 quarries + Church + Cloister + 1 or 2 other big buildings combo is very hard to beat. The main strategy to stop it is other people choosing settler more often to prevent the library plantation bonus, and of course producing/shipping as much as possible. (or two of them taking forest house before you!)
 
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the dare978devil
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To be honest, there is no counter-strategy which works. I like it when other people choose Settler, then I don't have to. Every time they do it, it nets me another forest. The Library bonus is much too powerful. For instance, they can't stop me taking Settler/Quarry/Forest when I am Governor. But even when I am not Gov, 2 off of buildings is incredible. In fact, it is ridiculous how powerful library is. If the other players have already Settled and Built, then taking Trader or Prospector is still great when you have Library. You can trade a single indigo for 3 by getting a double bonus for being the Trader. Same with Prospector. Between the 2 of them, there is almost always a coin sitting on them every round, so just take whichever one nets you the most. The very next turn you can buy yet another Big Building even if you are not Builder with 3 quarry and 6 forests. If I could select builder, Big Buildings for 1 coin. If someone else did, Big Buildings for 3. It means with only 4 coins, you can buy 2 big buildings in 2 consecutive rounds and no one can do anything about it.

I played 2 more games last night. I explained what I was going to do BEFORE the games. I even offered to be second player to try to give myself a disadvantage (they didn't accept, we rolled and I was second player anyway). So Settler/Quarry to open, I got corn. Then I built a Forest House. The third player took the other Forest House to try to match my strategy. Then I just beelined for Library, taking any role with coins on it, adding a forest on every Settler, and grabbing a Quarry when I was Gov (unless there was a high coin choice). I once Crafted for 2 coins with nothing produced even though the third player already had 3 corns activated, another time I Captained with a single corn to ship for 3 VP and 1 coin (boats were nearly full, so other players didn't benefit much).

It made no difference in the outcome. I was first to Library, and then spent the next few turns getting to 4 quarry / 6 settler. Was hilarious, I picked Builder from that point on, and was buying Big Buildings for 1 coin (with my 2 coin library advantage). If they Built instead of me, I just Traded for 3 or picked whatever had a coin on it. I only needed 3 coins when I was not Builder to buy a Big Building. I also had Black Market, and could top up by selling a Corn if I had to. It was a total slaughter. I finished my windrose long before heavy shipping was established and ended the game. I won by more than 10 points, and these were experienced players!

The other guy who had Forest House did get to 4 forest by the end of the game, but he was too enthralled with heavy corn production to make it work for him early. He did produce a lot of corn, but only ended up with 18 shipping VP.

Conclusion : Forest House is just too powerful. When combined with Library, Church, and Black Market, there is no stopping you.
 
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Well, looks like it's time for you to move on to another game then...

Old News. Keep on walkin'..nothing to see here...
 
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Andy Leber
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markgravitygood wrote:
Well, looks like it's time for you to move on to another game then...

Old News. Keep on walkin'..nothing to see here...



LOL. Yeah, sorry OP, but it is NOT as powerful as you make it out. Like any strategy, it CAN be, depending on the circumstances that come up, the the opponents you're playing.

At best, you can say it's an unbeatable strategy against your buddies. But it doesn't sound like you've put near enough "research" into it to conclude it's too powerful. A few games just don't cut it (this is true of any strategy in any game).

I hope none of that came across rude, or condescending. I really don't mean it like that. I just happen to strongly disagree that any strategy is that broken in PR (and not more well known, if it were).
 
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the dare978devil
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To Andy Leber,

Yeah, I'm with you, it could be my friends being unable to come up with a good counter-strategy. But put it this way, I have played maybe 30 games of Puerto Rico in my life. I have never found a consistent strategy to win, I would say I won roughly 25% of those games. But when we added the Expansion and I started grabbing Forest House, I have yet to lose. That's 5 in a row now.

I've also recently discovered Tropic Euro and Phial, the online Puerto Rico games. I set all CPU to Hard, and win every single time. Using any other strategy against the online versions, it's hit and miss if I win or not. But using the Forest House/Race to Library strategy, I win every time. Every time. It's never even close. Against computer opponents, I regularly finish the game with about 52 points whereas they are all in the 20's. I realize the computer opponents cannot make adjustments for my strategy, but I have also won every time (all 5 times I have tried it), in real life.

I believe the reason is that it changes the dynamics of the game too much. The original unexpanded game had a good balance between building and shipping. Either (or a combo of both) were good strategies, and they were about even in terms of which could lead to success. But Forest House + Library has unbalanced the game, made it too easy to build fast. In the original game, you had to conserve your coins to purchase at just the right moment, filling your windrose was a challenge. With the Forest House strategy, you can build every single time builder is chosen simply by getting free buildings. Once you have 6 forests and 3 quarries, every building with a value of 6 or less is free, and every building with a value of 8 or less is free when you are Builder. It's too powerful, shippers don't have enough time to compete.

Any counter-strategies welcome, my friends don't want to play Puerto Rico with the Expansion any longer.
 
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If that is true then ban the Forest House from play. Problem solved.
 
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Chris Gibbs
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dare978devil wrote:


I've also recently discovered Tropic Euro and Phial, the online Puerto Rico games. I set all CPU to Hard, and win every single time.

Just a note - the hard CPU player is not available for the expansion buildings. Only the normal AI player is available for the expansion buildings, which is easily beatable for experienced players using almost any strategy.

If you can win every single time against all CPU Hard players for the standard set of buildings, then I'm impressed, as the stats show that they win a fair majority of the games.
 
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TropicEuro wrote:
dare978devil wrote:


I've also recently discovered Tropic Euro and Phial, the online Puerto Rico games. I set all CPU to Hard, and win every single time.

Just a note - the hard CPU player is not available for the expansion buildings. Only the normal AI player is available for the expansion buildings, which is easily beatable for experienced players using almost any strategy.

If you can win every single time against all CPU Hard players for the standard set of buildings, then I'm impressed, as the stats show that they win a fair majority of the games.


Ah, thanks for that. I cannot win every single time on non-expansion play, and I didn't realize that CPU Hard was not actually playing the games. I set it to CPU Hard, but I can see now that "CPU Normal" actually comes up when the game starts if I use the Expansion.

We have banned Forest House from all of our games. Whoever gets it now does the same thing, beelines for Library and then wins the game. The only competition in any of the recent games we have played was between two Forest/Library holders, just to see which one could complete their windrose first. The other 2 players were completely overwhelmed, it wasn't even close.

So I go back to my original assertion, Forest House has unbalanced the game, making it far too easy for a builder to win. I also now fully understand the reason quarries were restricted to only 1 quarry for 1st column buildings, 2 for second, etc. It forced you to spend coins to make up the difference. With a pure build strategy, you were often short of coins to acquire Big Buildings, and had to let the build turn pass. Adding any number of Forest Houses meant you did not even have to establish any sort of coin generation, you could literally rely on the single coin added to the unpicked roles. With Library, you get 2 coins for picking Prospector (any extra coins on it as a bonus), exactly what you needed in order to acquire a Big Building with 6 forests, 3 quarries, and the Library.

 
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dare978devil wrote:
Ah, thanks for that. I cannot win every single time on non-expansion play, and I didn't realize that CPU Hard was not actually playing the games. I set it to CPU Hard, but I can see now that "CPU Normal" actually comes up when the game starts if I use the Expansion.

Yeah I added a notice in the tooltip information for each island owner box about CPU Hard being available for standard buildings only, perhaps I need to make it more clear as a couple of others have wondered why it reverts to CPU Normal for non-standard buildings.

By the way, the source code for the CPU hard player is available to download at http://www.tropiceuro.com/puerto-rico-evolver/ , if you are interested in Excel or VBA.

It uses DNA and genetic algorithms to "evolve" good strategies against a fixed set of buildings, but so far no one has figured out a way of getting it to work against a random set of buildings. (E-mail me if you have any ideas)
 
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dare978devil wrote:
So I go back to my original assertion, Forest House has unbalanced the game, making it far too easy for a builder to win. I also now fully understand the reason quarries were restricted to only 1 quarry for 1st column buildings, 2 for second, etc. It forced you to spend coins to make up the difference. With a pure build strategy, you were often short of coins to acquire Big Buildings, and had to let the build turn pass. Adding any number of Forest Houses meant you did not even have to establish any sort of coin generation, you could literally rely on the single coin added to the unpicked roles. With Library, you get 2 coins for picking Prospector (any extra coins on it as a bonus), exactly what you needed in order to acquire a Big Building with 6 forests, 3 quarries, and the Library.

I've played this strategy a few times in the past, and I found that to win, the Church was almost essential along with Library/Forest House. Also, if you are selecting random buildings each time, then surely only a small proportion of games will actually feature both library and forest house? (and even smaller number with church as well?)

There are some other combos with the expansion buildings that work very well too, the biggest win margins I've ever seen in PR have been with aqueduct + lg indigo + lg sugar + lg warehouse + union hall.
 
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[q="TropicEuro"
I've played this strategy a few times in the past, and I found that to win, the Church was almost essential along with Library/Forest House. Also, if you are selecting random buildings each time, then surely only a small proportion of games will actually feature both library and forest house? (and even smaller number with church as well?)

There are some other combos with the expansion buildings that work very well too, the biggest win margins I've ever seen in PR have been with aqueduct + lg indigo + lg sugar + lg warehouse + union hall.[/q]

Hi,

If you build all the way to 4 quarries + 6 forests, you don't need the church. That is 7 off any building, and coupled with Library, as Builder you need exactly 1 coin to build any Big Building. If you also have Black Market, you can trade anything you produce for that one coin, and build 10-coin buildings for nothing. The strategy is unstoppable, mainly because no one has sufficient rounds to build up a counter strategy (for instance, Wharf + Harbour would definitely beat my strategy, but by the time you could buy those buildings, I would have already ended the game).

You can also make what are seemingly big mistakes, and still win running away. One game we played, after I had Forest House, I only picked roles which had the most coins, regardless of what they were. I needed to get Library (which costs 8). If Settler was available, I picked that for Quarry, if not grabbed a Forest whenever someone else Settled. One round I crafted for 3 coins with nothing to craft (had an indigo plantation, but no plant), another I captained for 2 with nothing to ship. It made no difference. As soon as I had sufficient coins for Library, I was all set. Then I just concentrated on getting to 4 quarry + 6 forests, and never made any effort to produce anything nor to build any sort of money engine.

With an active Library, I would pick Settler if I had an odd number of forests because I could first pick a quarry, then a forest, effectively increasing my buying power by 2. Builder reduced costs by 2 with lib, and even Mayor gave me 2 bonus settlers instead of only 1. If anyone picked Builder, I got a free building. Guesthouse was a great pick-up, it only costs 4 (so I got it for free), and added 2 colonists to it the next time someone mayored. Then when I bought all my 10-coin buildings, I instantly activated them. I bought 3 10-coin buildings in 3 consecutive turns to complete my windrose and end the game (last one was Statue, didn't need a colonist on it). It was a blow-out.

As to your question about random buildings, we do a draft to ensure that I can pick Forest House + Library both when playing Tropic Euro and when playing real PR with my friends. They were initially interested in countering the Forest House strategy, but they aren't any longer as they agree there is no effective counter (other than to also pick Forest House + Library turning the game into a 2-horse race).

 
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Any one have stats for average number of turns for PR?

I don't play with the expansion enough to comment on this strat, but the constant "once you get 4 quarries and 6 forests..." really makes me wonder. Doesn't that take 10 rounds? That seems like a lot and the game should be coming close to an end anyway, but I'm a horrible estimator of game rounds.
 
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kusinohki wrote:
Any one have stats for average number of turns for PR?

I don't play with the expansion enough to comment on this strat, but the constant "once you get 4 quarries and 6 forests..." really makes me wonder. Doesn't that take 10 rounds? That seems like a lot and the game should be coming close to an end anyway, but I'm a horrible estimator of game rounds.


http://www.examiner.com/board-game-in-national/puerto-rico-b...

This article talks about the World Boardgaming Championships, and over nearly 10 years of PR, they say the average game is 15 rounds (4 player).

I haven't kept track to see if my home games match up with that or not, but it should at least give an idea.

(the info I mentioned is actually in the comments section, where John Weber, the guy who runs the tournament, was responding to one of my comments.)
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kusinohki wrote:
Any one have stats for average number of turns for PR?

I don't play with the expansion enough to comment on this strat, but the constant "once you get 4 quarries and 6 forests..." really makes me wonder. Doesn't that take 10 rounds? That seems like a lot and the game should be coming close to an end anyway, but I'm a horrible estimator of game rounds.


Nope, it doesn't take 10 rounds, it takes about 8. Obviously it varies, but you should not have to ever miss on a Builder round because you can get so many free buildings. You get double privileges with an activated Library. So if you grab and activate Forest House in the very first round, and then beeline for Library, you can very quickly build up your Forest/Quarries. Once you have Library, you can pick Settler and grab a Quarry, and then grab a Forest as well. Or you can grab 2 forests and instantly lower your building costs by 1 (no need to activate forests). When I use the Forest House Strategy, I can end the game in 10 or 11 rounds, long before a shipping strategy is paying dividends.

Think of it this way, if you never miss a build opportunity, then you only need 9 rounds to fill your windrose (3 Big + 6). In the early rounds, Builder is very often selected. So even if your opponents decide to not play into your hands and Build, you have Library by that time and get double bonus for selecting it yourself. Either way, you can end the game fast enough that no other strategy can compete.
 
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