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Subject: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading rss

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Marc Guenette
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Here we are.

What you see as retaliory,I see it as standing up for for fairness. I have access (I don't really because I have good American friends living close to my place) to 10% less of game than you.

Jay is offering Queen Gambit and Up Front only to Canadian. He is stating why. Some people don't like it. I wonder why they don't like it. Please tell me.

Jack has open that math trade worldwide. Didn't he? I'm willing to do the leg work even if you won't do the same for me. At a price. I don't know what you make an hour, on good days an hour is worth a lot to me, with 3 kids and a business to run and with a wife working. I'm not reatliory. I'm charging a fee for my time. which is 10$ that I graciously waive if you'll do the leg work for me.

Jeff, I am not trying to change your policy I'm trying to tell you, I am not accepting to do the leg work for free, if you won't do it to me. My time is as valuable as yours. Please note, again, I am shipping to you. You are not.
 
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Kent Fletcher
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Marc, I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning here. Almost always in a math trade, the person you send your game to is not the same person who is sending you the game. So your statement..
Quote:
I'm charging a fee for my time. which is 10$ that I graciously waive if you'll do the leg work for me.

doesn't quite make sense to me. If you ship a game to me, and I ship a game to Texas or Mexico City or wherever, what leg work are you requiring me to do for you? I'm not shipping the game to you, so how can the way I ship it have anything to do with you. That's between me and the person I'm shipping to, there is no leg work for me to do for you in that case because you are not involved. What do you mean by "do the leg work for me"? Please I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to understand the point you are trying to make.
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
I think what he's trying to say is:

"Why should I go through the trouble of sending international for you, if you wouldn't go through the same trouble for me?"
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Discussing shipping policies in math trades is like discussing religion and politics: no amount of discussion is going to change anyone's mind from what they already believe.

That being said, I do like the title of this thread
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Banning the "mirror shipping" (as defined at the bottom of this post) clause unfairly discriminates against non-US traders and gives an unfair advantage to people living in the US who refuse to ship elsewhere.

Because the US represents the largest trade market by far, it's fair to assume that it also represents the most likely destination for any package entered into an international trade list. If international traders refuse to ship to the US, it greatly reduces their chances of finding a match and being able to participate.

Certain US traders take advantage of this fact by regularly requesting games from other regions while refusing to ship anywhere outside the US border - reducing their own trade cost while increasing the cost and effort for others, reducing the number of available games for others while maximizing the options for themselves. What makes this even more infuriating is that USPS has one of the most convenient and well-implemented online services in the world. Have free packing materials delivered to you by requesting them online. Print out shipping labels, postage, and customs forms from the comfort of your home. Even schedule your packages for pick-up so you don't have to go to the post office. All totally possible!

It's become common practice for traders to specify "free domestic shipping, first $x elsewhere" which is totally fine. It's unfortunately common for traders specify "shipping to US only", although that's also fine if they so choose. But why create special rules that only apply to people outside the US, banning shipping restrictions based on who offers games they can actually receive?

The beauty of a math trade is that you only put items you want to receive on your want list. If someone doesn't like special shipping restrictions, they have no obligation to request that item. They do, however, still have the option to request that item and risk paying slightly higher shipping costs - which is an option many international traders simply don't have for between 10-20% of games in many Math Trades.

I'd like to hear why people think it's unfair to allow mirror shipping policies. So far I haven't heard anything approaching a convincing argument - the best attempt was "it's unfair to discriminate against shipping to specific individuals", but in that case I wonder how fair it is to discriminate against large groups of individuals based on location.






Mirror Shipping - Stating that you will only ship to an individual who is willing, if a match was made, to ship to your country. Personally, I strongly prefer people saying "first $x if international" instead of trying to mirror base shipping amounts, but that's just because it's easier for everyone to calculate.
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Kent Fletcher
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Ok I read over your post again and I think it's starting to become clearer to me. When you say
Quote:
"I'm charging a fee for my time. which is 10$ that I graciously waive if you'll do the leg work for me.

I think what you mean to say is "If you would be willing to do the leg work for me". So you're offering free shipping on the condition that the person your sending the game to has also offered free shipping. Ok I get that, but I think it's a bad idea to mess around with conditional shipping policies.
Could you have accomplished the same thing by offering free shipping to US (Or the first $10 or whatever) and then added a note to US Math traders that you would not add their game to your wantlists unless they were offering free shipping to Canada or matching whatever shipping policy you have? That way it's not your policy that is conditional which I think would avoid some potential post trade problems. Since you are the one adding games to your wantlist, you are in control of who you trade with and if you think their policy is lame or unfair, simply don't add them. And your note to US traders would get the same message out that you think their shipping policy is not fair. It all accomplishes the same thing but avoids potential problems with mirror shipping policies and post trade issues.
Just a suggestion.

Edit: Thanks for the Clarification on the OP's post. I was in the process of writing the above when others jumped in. I get what the OP is trying to say, I just think there are better ways than Mirror Shipping policies.
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Kent, off course we trade all around.

My point is, it's absolutely impossible for me to get any of JefyJeff stuff (only used as an example here), because he won't take the time to go to Postal Office to ship internationnaly. And it is ok. I understand.

If i can't even bid on his item, he can bid on mine, but he has to accept that he is paying the whole shipping . Ultimately, if you ship internationally or in Canada in my case, even tho the probablitity of me getting your game is small I am covering the first 10$/15$ depending on the lot.

Technically, since I put my stuff earlier than him, I could be a cry baby and say, hey you are not shipping to Canada as retaliation to my shipping policy. It can never end.

As stated. If one doesn't want to ship to Canada. I am ok with that. But if you don't even let me the possibility of bidding on your item, I'm asking you to pay full shipping. I will do the leg work for a fee for someone who won't do it for me. Still, I am shipping to you.
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Personally, I think conditional shipping arrangements based on the receiver's policy shouldn't be allowed (and I'll admit, I've used them in the past), if for no other reason than to eliminate any source of misinterpretation or confusion.

Jay's "Canada-Only" policy, on the other hand, is clear, and I think if any US traders have a issues with that one, then that's too bad. He's severely limiting his chances of trading it. But... if US-only is allowed, then he should be able to keep his item north of 49 if he wants.
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Frankenfletch wrote:
Could you have accomplished the same thing by offering free shipping to US (Or the first $10 or whatever) and then added a note to US Math traders that you would not add their game to your wantlists unless they were offering free shipping to Canada or matching whatever shipping policy you have? That way it's not your policy that is conditional which I think would avoid some potential post trade problems. Since you are the one adding games to your wantlist, you are in control of who you trade with and if you think their policy is lame or unfair, simply don't add them.

I don't think that will work.

If someone (say Jeff) has a US-only policy, then Marc can't really put any of Jeff's items on his want list to begin with.

If Marc is willing to ship anywhere, there's nothing stopping Jeff from adding one of Marc's items. Marc can't really use his own wantlists to try and influence Jeff's decisions, since Jeff won't ship to him anyways.
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Wow. It filled up fast.

BTW, I am shipping to anyone. You have to pay full shipping if you're not letting me the possibility of getting your game then, there you pay full shipping to win my stuff.

I am doing this even tho I have a good friend in Vermont that collects game for me from people that won't ship to me. There is never an urgency to receive a specific game.

Yet, it tickles me that when people value their time more than mine or any international participant for that matter.

I've trade numerous time with Akosa, and with a few times with you Kent as well. It was always great !

Jeffy doesn't like my policy, as retaliory, and he is considering refusing math trade organizers not to use his tool wehen he doesn't like the shipping policy. So be it. In the long run you will lose a participant of the first hour. Your loss.

For those who advocates we can ship to whoever we want. I agree. My shipping policy allows anybody to bid on my items. For a fee if you don't ship to me. If you really want my item, then bid on it.



 
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Ghengis, my policy is clear. Don't try to find anything that is not there.
 
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Jay's position is clear. And he even explains it. He's offering two very sough after item. And people are complaining. Is it me, or I find it an hypocrit attitude?

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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Just a note to anyone who has not seen the rest of this discussion, it started on two separate items in an on-going Math trade here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/68596/item/1716573#ite...

and here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/68596/item/1717283#ite...

Quite a few things are discussed and points of view shared and clarified on both sides of the fence though as Ed (newuser) states we have yet to hear how the ways things are now is more fair than allowing some Multi-country trades where everyone ships to everyone is no one is excluded and being "teased" by items in the trade.

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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Kwebec wrote:
Ghengis, my policy is clear. Don't try to find anything that is not there.

I understand what you're saying. Mirror shipping is clear to me, but the number of times it's needed to be explained in past trades (even after being clearly spelled out in the item) says otherwise.
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Genghis wrote:
Kwebec wrote:
Ghengis, my policy is clear. Don't try to find anything that is not there.

I understand what you're saying. Mirror shipping is clear to me, but the number of times it's needed to be explained in past trades (even after being clearly spelled out in the item) says otherwise.

But Marc's policy isn't mirror shipping.

Mirror shipping says: "If your shipping policy is X, mine is X."

Marc's says, "If you don't ship to Canada, you can win my game, but you'll pay full shipping."
 
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
BTW, I don't have a problem with people setting their own shipping policies. If I can't bid on it, I don't. If I could bid on it but don't like the shipping policy, I won't.

What's the problem?

Edit: well, there is one problem. If two people both simply say, Mirror Shipping, what happens if they win each others' game? You need a base shipping policy to fall back on in those cases.

Also, mirror shipping has an issue with people like me who usually ship to Canada, but won't for some large, bulky items. Which one do I fall under?
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
sos1 wrote:
Genghis wrote:
Kwebec wrote:
Ghengis, my policy is clear. Don't try to find anything that is not there.

I understand what you're saying. Mirror shipping is clear to me, but the number of times it's needed to be explained in past trades (even after being clearly spelled out in the item) says otherwise.

But Marc's policy isn't mirror shipping.

Mirror shipping says: "If your shipping policy is X, mine is X."

Marc's says, "If you don't ship to Canada, you can win my game, but you'll pay full shipping."

My mistake.
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
sos1 wrote:
What's the problem?

A sudden rash of pettiness all around?

If everyone takes their ball and goes home pretty soon no one will be playing anything at all.
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
I have no issue with people setting up their shipping parameters. I do agree that mirror shipping or something of that ilk can be confusing in math trades, particularly if people new to math trades are involved. I have no issue whatsoever with Jay or whoever is only offering to ship to Canada - that's his choice.

However, since Jeff designed the OWLG, after this current math trade is completed, I would argue he has the freedom to make a set of expectations/rules for the use of the tool he created. Then you have a choice of whether you will participate within the new parameters.
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Steffan, time for a hug :-)

BTW, as explained before. I have friends that can receive games for me in Vermont. I participate in 2/3 games conventions in the US a year, and I organize one a year up here. I'm never in a hurry to get a game, and I have friend that accept to BTW, I usually don't do that, but when I saw the reactions on Jay's Up Front. It tickled me. He explained why, and people still bitched. I've traded with most of you before, and never had a problem.

As Steffan said, I'm shipping to you all friends !!! :-)
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
The main problem I see is one of utility. When you agree to a trade, you do not just compare the value of your item vs what you are receiving. You have to take into factor the shipping costs and the effort to get that item shipped. Everybody want to act in their best self-interest.

Take the perspective of an American trader. To ship to Canada, the effort to commit (time+gas) is worth, say, $10. Prior to the results, the trader does not know if s/he is actually trading to Canada or not. So to be safe, s/he must overvalue his/her items by $10. S/he will only check items s/he thinks are worth that extra.

Suppose now that there are some items s/he really wants, but they're not worth the extra $10. S/he would have to change his/her shipping policy to USA only so s/he ensure his/herself s/he won't commit the extra effort.

This is a very intuitive concept. For example, sometimes you get lucky in shipping MTs and the receiver is local. You save the shipping costs then. In hindsight, if you knew your recipient was a local trader, it's obvious you would have opened your want list because you wouldn't have to take into account shipping.

Now this concept applies both ways but it benefits Americans. This is because most items are from USA. In order to convince Americans to go through the trouble of shipping to Canada, we need to validate the following statement:

"By opening your shipping policy, the net effect on the global want list will result in you getting on average an item of value $X more than anticipated, where $X is the value of the effort of shipping cross-border"

If we can show Americans that it will encourage the quality of items they receive by opening their policy, then they will gladly do it. But this is hard to quantify and prove.
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Marc Guenette
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Kaiwen, you're explaining it better than I.

Damian, I using a natural/bio nepalese cream for my rash, what are u using? ;-)
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
Mirror shipping as it was implemented in the past apparently did have some faults and the system was somehow abused by a retailer which helped bring about the ban from my understanding (though if the retailer was asking other people to pay for the shipping of his items, then I don't know why anyone would put that on their want list anyway)

In theory Mirror shipping works great, you are willing to pay $10 and in return $10 of your shipping is covered, done properly probably the most fair system but there were some loopholes and exceptions where I think this was not always true.

What happened is now we have swung from one extreme to another and there are no multi-country equality trades allowed, where everyone ships to everyone as it "stops Jeff from participating" since he's not on board with cross border shipping. Trades like that are then a "tease" to him so what we have now instead is many many other people being "teased" by his and other's items and its "okay" for them to have us do the "leg work" to ship them as Marc puts it but they are not about to do it for others.

Understandable that if all trades ended up this way it would be no good for those not wanting to ship cross border, but it was only ever some trades (a minority really) and mostly there used to be a lot of USA only trades and they were always the biggest as well.

So it seems either end of the spectrum is not working out for all, and some kind of middle ground would seem to be the most beneficial for the biggest number of people.
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
sos1 wrote:
Edit: well, there is one problem. If two people both simply say, Mirror Shipping, what happens if they win each others' game? You need a base shipping policy to fall back on in those cases.

Also, mirror shipping has an issue with people like me who usually ship to Canada, but won't for some large, bulky items. Which one do I fall under?

IIRC...

Fallback policy if both shippers listed "Mirror" was "Free".

... and I *think* in the second case it would have been based on the winning item if a trader's items had different policies.

This is why I think clearer is better.
 
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Re: Continuation of the discussion about the assassination of international trading by the coward Jim Jello !
For what it's worth, I'm okay with this shipping policy, but only because I've done dozens of math trade's before.

As a new math trader, I was far more optimistic about trades, and didn't account for the shipping costs. Having gone through many math trades, and gone through this process many times, I've learned that you have to be vigilent when looking at the shipping policies.

Nowadays, my last step before submitting my wants list is that I verify the shipping policies for every game on my list. I'm of the belief that almost no fair-value trade is worth having to pay for both sides of the shipping. Having to pay the sender another $10 because they only cover the first $10 is enough for me to remove their item from my want's list.

I wouldn't add a game with this shipping policy to my want list, as I wouldn't satisfy the criteria. If I were to ultimately keep this game on my wants list, it means I would have factored in the dual-way shipping costs to get it. It's your right to list the game with your policy, and it would be my right to devalue the game because of said policy.

The question at hand, I believe, is how much do we need to shield the newer math traders from this sort of policy? If they inadvertently get matched to this item when they weren't planning on filling out a customs form, they now have to pay full shipping. They're now paying $30 (assume $10 for the outbound game, and $20 for the inbound game) for the privilege of trading a $60 game for another $60 game.
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