Peter Smalls
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so this combo is bad. just create as many destroyer as you can. next you can kill them all for 1 tg each and rebuild for half that. free trade goods every turn. can get like 8 extra trade goods a turn this way. only have to have like 2 techs and game ovah.
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JH
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Yeah, it's been brought up elsewhere. A quick house-rule fix would be to allow the Mentak only 1 Trade Good per 2 Destroyers if they have Mirror Computing, or just play without Transfabrication when Mentak are in the game.

Or, you know. Just pile on as soon as they get one of the two. Can't build at blockaded Space Docks no matter how many TG you have.
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Steve Fowler
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In our next game we are going with resources instead of TGs.
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Steve Gagnon
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I hope I have a chance to do this or watch someone else do it. It doesn't seem terribly broken to me right now without seeing it first.

You need the two techs. You need the fleet supply. You need destroyers at your space docks. And you need to sacrifice not only production capacity but entire production activations.

To gain 8 trade goods for example you need 8 destroyers in one system (how many does each color get?), 8 counters in fleet supply, a counter for the activation, and probably a system with 2 space docks.
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Yeah, it seems like it would take a lot of setup to pull off. I'd figure it'd only really work once or twice in a game group; a Mentak player going for the combo will probably get stepped on after that.
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Andrew
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Fargofootball wrote:
In our next game we are going with resources instead of TGs.


I feel like the 1 Trade Good per 2 Destroyers for the Mentak fix that Sigma suggested hamstrings the tech less. It giving TGs is only really a problem with the Mentak, and only really with Destroyers.
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postalrat wrote:
I hope I have a chance to do this or watch someone else do it. It doesn't seem terribly broken to me right now without seeing it first.

You need the two techs. You need the fleet supply. You need destroyers at your space docks. And you need to sacrifice not only production capacity but entire production activations.

To gain 8 trade goods for example you need 8 destroyers in one system (how many does each color get?), 8 counters in fleet supply, a counter for the activation, and probably a system with 2 space docks.


Each player has 8 Destroyers.
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Scott Lewis
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wardac wrote:
Fargofootball wrote:
In our next game we are going with resources instead of TGs.


I feel like the 1 Trade Good per 2 Destroyers for the Mentak fix that Sigma suggested hamstrings the tech less. It giving TGs is only really a problem with the Mentak, and only really with Destroyers.

I'd go further (and maybe you meant it this way, in which case, nevermind), that the 1 TG for 2 Destroyers is only for the combo. IE, you are changing Mirror Computing to add that specific comment about Transfabrication
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sigmazero13 wrote:
wardac wrote:
Fargofootball wrote:
In our next game we are going with resources instead of TGs.


I feel like the 1 Trade Good per 2 Destroyers for the Mentak fix that Sigma suggested hamstrings the tech less. It giving TGs is only really a problem with the Mentak, and only really with Destroyers.

I'd go further (and maybe you meant it this way, in which case, nevermind), that the 1 TG for 2 Destroyers is only for the combo. IE, you are changing Mirror Computing to add that specific comment about Transfabrication


I think the difference is moot. You aren't going to play the Mentak and not get Mirror Computing, and you certainly aren't going to play the Mentak, get Transfabrication, and not get Mirror Computing.
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Steve Gagnon
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Salvage + Mirror Computing sounds just as bad or worse. 4 trade goods for simply attacking.
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Neil Parker
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Yeah, it seems like it would take a lot of setup to pull off. I'd figure it'd only really work once or twice in a game group; a Mentak player going for the combo will probably get stepped on after that.


Exactly, i wonder how often a Mentak player could in practice do this and what are the other players doing? An ability may be high powered, if you can get to use it, but that doesnt always mean broken.
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David Townsend
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Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just sitting and doing the math, I agree this seems pretty powerful. But just because an engine is impressive on paper, you've still got to commit the fleet supply, set up the space docks, use the command counters to get the ships together, etc (as several folks have pointed out).

While all this is going on, I assume the other players are actually makeing strides towards completing objectives! What I'd like to know is have any groups suddenly seen the Mentak run away and WIN some games like this? In my experience, Mentak are a race that's fun to play, but frankly not well equipped to be the first to 9 points. If this actually gives them a fighting chance, it may be the buff they needed to be competitive with some of the top-tier races ...
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For the WBC I was going to eliminalte things that cost 1 tg from being recycled. That is assuming an official ruling is still unavailable.
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dctownsend wrote:
What I'd like to know is have any groups suddenly seen the Mentak run away and WIN some games like this?


Sigmazero posted a thread on this combo a couple days ago, and the Mentak player using it did leverage it for a win (in addition to simply being able to buy units with 8 Destroyers' worth of Trade Goods, with Mirror Computing those goods can also be used for expensive objectives like "spend 20 influence" — sacrificing 8 resources worth of Destroyers for 4/5 of a 2VP objective sounds like a good deal to me). It sounds like it definitely made a difference in that game. I just wonder how effective it can be over the long term once the jig is up in a group that it's a potentially powerful combo for the Mentak.
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JJ Belyeu
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VampireCobra wrote:
so this combo is bad. just create as many destroyer as you can. next you can kill them all for 1 tg each and rebuild for half that. free trade goods every turn. can get like 8 extra trade goods a turn this way. only have to have like 2 techs and game ovah.


I think for my group, I might house-rule that ships scuttled this turn cant be rebuilt on the same turn.

That seems more like the intent, and it doesnt completely require rewording. Plus it fits more thematically. If the parts from one ship are used to build another ship, then that ship shouldn't be in the player supply. At least not for a while IE, the next turn. This at least slows it down without totally nerfing it.
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BeerMe wrote:
VampireCobra wrote:
so this combo is bad. just create as many destroyer as you can. next you can kill them all for 1 tg each and rebuild for half that. free trade goods every turn. can get like 8 extra trade goods a turn this way. only have to have like 2 techs and game ovah.


I think for my group, I might house-rule that ships scuttled this turn cant be rebuilt on the same turn.

That seems more like the intent, and it doesnt completely require rewording. Plus it fits more thematically. If the parts from one ship are used to build another ship, then that ship shouldn't be in the player supply. At least not for a while IE, the next turn. This at least slows it down without totally nerfing it.


This would cripple the tech and make it so that the only legitimate uses for it would be denying other people objectives, or scuttling your entire fleet for a game winning objective. You want to be able to rebuild units scuttled this turn so you can scuttle the lone Carrier on the other side of the board and build it at your space dock, or scuttle a space dock and build one on Mecatol Rex.
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Neil Parker
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dctownsend wrote:
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just sitting and doing the math, I agree this seems pretty powerful. But just because an engine is impressive on paper, you've still got to commit the fleet supply, set up the space docks, use the command counters to get the ships together, etc (as several folks have pointed out).

While all this is going on, I assume the other players are actually makeing strides towards completing objectives! What I'd like to know is have any groups suddenly seen the Mentak run away and WIN some games like this? In my experience, Mentak are a race that's fun to play, but frankly not well equipped to be the first to 9 points. If this actually gives them a fighting chance, it may be the buff they needed to be competitive with some of the top-tier races ...


Agreed. The expansion is new out and yet there's already talk of house rules. I dont have anything against house rules per se as sometimes they are necessary, but i'd rather see players use strategy, tactics and diplomacy to overcome perceived strengths and weaknesses.

I'd quite like to see more posts and threads on strategy and tactics and i'd rather read these than ones on rule changes.

How frequently have Mentak been played with this combo being a game winner? - in our group (not that we play TI3 regularly - alas) we would use strategy, tactics and diplomacy to overcome a strong player rather that change the rules - a policy we would use where relevant in most games.
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Brian Petersen
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Well, in your attempt to stop the Mentak, they'd get 2 TGs from Salvage Operations, fire PDSs, fire twice before space battle with the destroyers, anti-fighter barrage, and then the combat would start between your fleet and a blob of destroyers. At this point in time, you've given them 4 resources and they may have already done up to 8 damage (6 PDS 2 pre-combat destroyers) and wiped out your entire fighter screen with AFB. They still have 8 destroyers and you have a much smaller fleet than you originally walked in with. The odds are stacked in their favor. If you've been building up a DN army, they'll have built their flagship that cancels the Sustain Damage ability. During the fight, they'll hit on 8's with 8 ships while you have less hits to absorb. After the fight, they can rebuild one of your ships to get back up to 8 destroyers. You essentially paid them to kill you.

There's 2 strategies to counter the cheapness of their stuff. Using the Alastor as Nekro Virus to simply blow up the area, then let another player land before it's Mentak's turn. You'll both get 2 TGs that count double and a tech. Or get Deep Space Cannons and fire into the system from adjacent systems until you've weakened the fleet to the point where you can be successful in destroying the SD.

Speaking of the Nekro coupled with Mentak, if Mentak's before Space Combat hits destroy the enemy fleet, do they gain 2 TGs for being in a Space Battle? If PDS or Mentak's before Space Combat hits blow up the Alastor, did no Space Battle commence, so neither side gets 2 TGs and Nekro doesn't get a tech for destroying units in a Space Battle?

Playing with SE Strategy Cards, Mentak can grab Production and build the same 8 destroyers 2-3 times.
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Scott Lewis
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TomBoombs wrote:
Playing with SE Strategy Cards, Mentak can grab Production and build the same 8 destroyers 2-3 times.

For what it's worth, you can't use Transfabrication during Production; it can only be used during the "Build Step" of an action, and only Tactical and Transfer actions have "Build Steps".
 
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Andrew
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TomBoombs wrote:
Well, in your attempt to stop the Mentak, they'd get 2 TGs from Salvage Operations, fire PDSs, fire twice before space battle with the destroyers, anti-fighter barrage, and then the combat would start between your fleet and a blob of destroyers. At this point in time, you've given them 4 resources and they may have already done up to 8 damage (6 PDS 2 pre-combat destroyers) and wiped out your entire fighter screen with AFB. They still have 8 destroyers and you have a much smaller fleet than you originally walked in with. The odds are stacked in their favor. If you've been building up a DN army, they'll have built their flagship that cancels the Sustain Damage ability. During the fight, they'll hit on 8's with 8 ships while you have less hits to absorb. After the fight, they can rebuild one of your ships to get back up to 8 destroyers. You essentially paid them to kill you.

There's 2 strategies to counter the cheapness of their stuff. Using the Alastor as Nekro Virus to simply blow up the area, then let another player land before it's Mentak's turn. You'll both get 2 TGs that count double and a tech. Or get Deep Space Cannons and fire into the system from adjacent systems until you've weakened the fleet to the point where you can be successful in destroying the SD.

Speaking of the Nekro coupled with Mentak, if Mentak's before Space Combat hits destroy the enemy fleet, do they gain 2 TGs for being in a Space Battle? If PDS or Mentak's before Space Combat hits blow up the Alastor, did no Space Battle commence, so neither side gets 2 TGs and Nekro doesn't get a tech for destroying units in a Space Battle?

Playing with SE Strategy Cards, Mentak can grab Production and build the same 8 destroyers 2-3 times.


You make it sound as if a fleet of 8 Destroyers is impossible to defeat, which it most assuredly is not.

PDS is before the space battle sequence (so wouldn't count), but any pre-combat effect is part of it, so would count for the Mentak tech and the Nekro racial. If the Alastor is destroyer by PDS fire, no space combat is initiated.
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