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at the end of a round of space battle, you may destroy 1 of your dreadnought present to destroy 2 present enemy ship of your choice


look overpower when 1 dreadnought can destroy 2 warsun/ flagship
 
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Brian Petersen
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Indeed. That's what the text on the card says you can do. Keep in mind that the DN would have to survive until the end of the first round of combat. 2 warsuns would most likely hit 6 times plus their supporting fleet against a DN plus its supporting fleet. It's weaker than the Alastor (Nekro flagship) waltzing into that 2 warsun/flagship etc. system and blowing up their whole fleet.

 
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Steve Williams
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Given that the N'orr are arguably the most crippled race in the game I think they need every bone they can get. Even if Exotrireme were overpowered it would still do little to help them as it is a combat tech only, and an expensive one at that [4 to research and effectively 5 more per use]. It would more realistically be a Warsun deterrent as once you have this tech savvy opponents at risk for combat with you probably wont use them.

On the bright side though, it gives the N'orr an option for hit & run attacks: send in a small fleet, crack the dreadnought to destroy 2 carriers and then retreat, wiping out all the fighters. An interesting and cool maneuver, but even if you pull this off once you've only profited 3 resources [9 for the tech and dread to kill 12 worth of carriers and fighters]. Hell even if you live the dream and pop 2 Warsuns with it, you're only profiting 13 resources, which is maybe 1 turn's worth, and you spent a turn getting the tech in the first place. If over the course of the game you use it several times, each netting high value targets like warsuns and flagships, it becomes worth the investment. But then how are you winning with all this constant fighting and rebuilding going on?
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Tobias Schwabe
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I like this racial tech for the norr, as said a wise opponent will
not risk their warsun against norr.

And if it could not destroy warsun/flagship then this tech would be
worthless, cause as commonly known, except for L1z1x most players
did not rely on dreadnoughts.

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1) single Dreadnought (with little escort) can bring down two fully equipped Carriers/War Suns;

2) it's more important as a defensive measure because of this;

3) Alastor takes down both fleets, N'orr's racial is precise.

also, I don't understand why so many people complains about Sardakk. it's very simple and undemanding race, meaned to level their opponents by sheer brute force, without fancy politics and such. and their racial ability - although single - is really powerfull one. find the race better in combat than them. with single exception of Yin (because of their kamikaze snipers) no one can match their offensive capabilities.

OK, their starting force sucks a little, but only in pure game. while my group belongs to "Distant Suns Fanatics" camp, their 5 GF at the beginning becomes invaluable.
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David desJardins
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Quiciuq wrote:
1) single Dreadnought (with little escort) can bring down two fully equipped Carriers/War Suns;


Don't you need lots of escort? You need to survive a combat round.
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Quiciuq wrote:
1) single Dreadnought (with little escort) can bring down two fully equipped Carriers/War Suns;


As mentioned, you have to survive 1 round of combat before you can trigger Exotrireme. In a vacuum versus 2 Warsuns [why someone has 2 unguarded Warsuns we'll not dwell on] your escort needs to withstand on average 5 shots, probably 6, meaning the smallest kamikaze fleet you could get away with is 1 Dreadnought and 5 Destroyers. Depending on how you got the technology, it costs between 4-12 resources to research Exotrireme, meaning at best you kill 2 Warsuns and profit 10 resources, and at worst you profit a whopping 2 resources [14-22 for your tech and fleet, 24 for the Warsuns].

Quiciuq wrote:
also, I don't understand why so many people complains about Sardakk.


Its a bit of a jaded thing really. When unboxing the game and the first couple plays one gets excited by the prospect of the warrior bugs and their absurd combat bonus, wreaking havoc and letting the galaxy burn. But the truth of the matter is that combat is generally a bad idea in TI3. Unless every action you take gains you a VP or moves you significantly closer to one, you are going to be beaten by the person(s) who are doing so, and Sardakk N'orr are handicapped at everything non-combat related. The combat prowess also puts the other players on edge; they'll constantly be anticipating aggression from you, and will need little rousing to rally against you. Basically the N'orr's problem is that they are over-penalized for their combat bonus; they are slow to start, slow to tech, have no political clout, and a big red bulls-eye, all for part of the game that is generally not going to help you win very often.

All things aside, I would just like to point out that Exotrireme is a really cool word. robot
 
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David desJardins
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IncrediSteve wrote:
Depending on how you got the technology, it costs between 4-12 resources to research Exotrireme, meaning at best you kill 2 Warsuns and profit 10 resources, and at worst you profit a whopping 2 resources [14-22 for your tech and fleet, 24 for the Warsuns].


I might be missing something. How do you profit? You lose some ships, and an opponent also loses some ships. But you are still worse off, not better off.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I might be missing something. How do you profit? You lose some ships, and an opponent also loses some ships. But you are still worse off, not better off.


All you are profiting is net resources: 10 Resources worth of your ships were used to destroy 24 resources worth of your opponent's ships. This profit dwindles even further when you factor in the cost of the tech.

Hence my stance that it's an okay combat technology, but still just a combat technology at the end of the day and not going to help you win most games.
 
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IncrediSteve wrote:
All you are profiting is net resources: 10 Resources worth of your ships were used to destroy 24 resources worth of your opponent's ships. This profit dwindles even further when you factor in the cost of the tech.


I don't think "profit" is a good word for "I lose something, and cause you to lose more". That's a "loss".
 
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Steve Williams
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By that logic, all combat is a straight loss unless you wipe them clean, and even then "I spent one CC to make you lose some ships". I wouldn't be that hard on it.
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Brian Petersen
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Universities gain 3 TG every time someone attacks them by activating their system. Mentak gains 2 TG every time they participate in space battle, which translates into 4 resources. Nekro could get either of those techs. If Mentak is in the game though, they'll be grabbing both of their racial techs. With Universities though, that 3 TG is 3 TG you give them when you attack them and you get tech. Then when they counter attack, you get 3 TG and you get tech. When another player tries attacking you, you get 3 TG and a tech from them.

When exactly is the tech gained by the way? "When you destroy at least 1 enemy unit in Space or Invasion Combat..." Do you gain it as soon as you destroy 1 unit, end of combat round, end of that battle or end of the tactical action? That's quite important for getting Nano Tech during the space battle before landing on planets, getting a +1 in the middle of the fight or next round of combat, or using AFB to destroy a ship, then getting Assault Cannon and firing another pre-combat shot.

Combat is only a straight loss if you can't afford the ships you lost and they can afford the ships they lost. For instance, one game as N'orr I started out by sending my destroyer to blow up one of the Hacan's carriers. I couldn't afford to lose that CC but they could certainly afford the 3 resources to build a new carrier thanks to trade. They had 2 carriers so it didn't really even slow down their expansion. Yet another problem with people not giving trrade kitties 1's only. After Round 1, that's generally a 3 for a "3."

Again with surviving one combat round to do it, how often does combat last a second round? In your best case scenario 2 war suns vs 1 DN and 5 destroyers that hit on a 4 and a 7 respectively for N'orr. I haven't done the math, but that's likely to do 4 hits compared to them doing 6. If you destroyed 1 of their war suns during combat and have 4 hits left to be able to take, it's more profitable to save your DN and continue a second round of combat to blow up the second war sun by fighting it.

Besides that, my gaming group has had war suns on the board maybe 2 games that didn't have the Muatt in play. The real damage would be if someone was silly enough to attack you with 2 carriers holding 4 MUs, 6 PDSs, and 2 GFs to land. If those 2 ships are destroyed, that's a lot of damage and then they can't invade, but again, that's a very silly force to attack with knowing that you have that tech. If they bring in their flagship, they're also gonna make damn sure that your DN is destroyed in the first combat round.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
All you are profiting is net resources: 10 Resources worth of your ships were used to destroy 24 resources worth of your opponent's ships. This profit dwindles even further when you factor in the cost of the tech.


I don't think "profit" is a good word for "I lose something, and cause you to lose more". That's a "loss".


Straight accountancy doesn't win wars.

If this tactic destroys the warsun about to invade your home system, or clears the way to colpetely an secret objective then it's resources well spent.

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Stephen Williams
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TomBoombs wrote:
Universities gain 3 TG every time someone attacks them by activating their system. Mentak gains 2 TG every time they participate in space battle, which translates into 4 resources. Nekro could get either of those techs. If Mentak is in the game though, they'll be grabbing both of their racial techs. With Universities though, that 3 TG is 3 TG you give them when you attack them and you get tech. Then when they counter attack, you get 3 TG and you get tech. When another player tries attacking you, you get 3 TG and a tech from them.


This is something of a tangent, but I was of the impression that the Nekro ability allowed you to receive a tech for yourself that the opponent already had (ignoring prereqs.) Meaning, you go find the tech in your own tech deck and put it into play for yourself. You can't receive an opponent's racial tech because you don't have that card in your tech deck. There's only one copy of that card in the game and it's the one they have. In a game with no memory, this is a significant limitation.

Someone correct me if I'm out to lunch here. Can the Nekro copy racial techs? If so, how does one denote those stolen techs in a game which doesn't (and shouldn't, IMHO) require players to write things down?
 
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Brian Petersen
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Yes it can. Nekro's racial techs are to steal racial techs.

VALEFAR ASSIMILATOR (2 cards of same Tech) Gain this Technology by using your racial ability to copy a racial Technology an opponent has researched, You cannot copy a technology that modifies his racial ability. Place the race's Control marker on this card to remember which ability you have copied.

It does kind of require you to know the other players racial tech or write it down. Most of them are real easy to remember, such as "Gain 3 TGs when an opponent activates a system you control." or "Get 1 free GF that doesn't count towards production capacity every time you build at a SD." Others like Hacan trading Strategy Cards or gaining and giving TGs might take some writing down.
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Christopher Beck
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Quote:
But the truth of the matter is that combat is generally a bad idea in TI3. Unless every action you take gains you a VP or moves you significantly closer to one, you are going to be beaten by the person(s) who are doing so, and Sardakk N'orr are handicapped at everything non-combat related.


Given the N'orr's carrier limitation, combat for them is often a viable way to expand. People often discount how useful combat in TI3 is as a way to cripple an opponent's economy, which often prevents them getting VPs from POs that are economy, tech, or colony number based (i.e. I control 5 systems outside my home planet).

So I disagree with this statement. Blood for the Blood God, I say! devil

Also, that constant +1 and the ridiculously powerful flagship the N'orr have are great psychological deterrents against being attacked. Yes, people tend to be edgy around the N'orr, but that can lead to decent trade agreements and cooperation with neighbors, particularly once you factor Hylar lasers and that tech that lets DNs shoot a volley first into the mix.
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Steve Williams
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Possibly. There is some beef behind the notion that your Destroyers start off as good as most people's cruisers!
 
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Brian Petersen
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I'm sure there's also some beef with 2 of their cruisers being better than 1 of anyone else's DNs, excluding Lizix with their racial techs and Type IV Drives, and ignoring Fleet Supply limitations, and ability to repair if not defeated.

I'm still convinced it's only use is a final screw you after a terrible roll or defending MR against people without stasis capsules. People in my group always send a fleet capable of annihilating the opponent in one round unless their only goal is to gain something without winning a space battle, like Nekro or Mentak or "Destroy X ships" objective. The 4 resources for the tech and getting DNs on the front lines are better spent on getting all of your cheap units out on the board and meeting tech objectives.

I've been having trouble convincing one of the players in my group that combat with no losses on your side but severe losses on the other helps you win by preventing their win. For instance, an enemy builds 2 space docks in a system that contains no units, forgetting that your cruisers in the Wormhole Nexus can reach it. You lose 5 resources in the retaliation (if it happens), but they lose 8 resources and 2 turns of building from those planets. He's avoided several situations along those lines in the past 8 games.

Count your losses and your enemies. Then count your gains during the same amount of time. If Hacan and N'orr get in a fight and Hacan loses 10 resources and N'orr loses 6, the N'orr are losing next round. Some races can afford to war more than others. The sad thing is, those with combat bonuses tend to not be able to afford a war of attrition.
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