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Subject: Fido card when you have 0 cards in hand. rss

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Eric Folsom
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I was out of cards and I was the defense. The offense invited his ally and then I was getting ready to take 8 new cards. Before I did, the offense used the Flare card "Fido" which is before selecting cards, I took top discard (which was a terrible encounter card) and he draws a card from the deck. I was then forced to play that terrible card (and he knew what it was).

Is this correct or should I have been able to draw my 8, then Fido used before I select cards. We went with me getting the bad card, because I think that is the correct way. I could also see it as I select cards once I have my 8.

By the way, I actually ended up winning by the end of the game, but still would like to know the order there.
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mar hawkman
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What is the phase timing of the Fido flare? there's a specific phase you draw a new hand in. If he can play the flare before then, you're screwed.
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Darian Tucker
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You don't draw cards until you actually need them. As long as he played the Flare before the check to see if you needed a new hand came into play, you played it correctly. In other words, this would have to happen before the Planning phase.
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mar hawkman
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I just looked it up on the Warp.... and I'm not sure. It must be used before the defense selects a card to use, but doesn't say exactly when. It does look like it can probably be used before planning though.
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Mil Myman
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They both happen during the Planning phase, before cards are selected. According to the Timing Rule, offense goes first, so in this situation, the Defense is screwed. Sorry. AFAICT, the only way out of this situation is if you or one of your allies has a Card Zap or a Hand Zap, or some other flare that can get you cards or discard.
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I have Another question regarding the defense having 0 cards.

Mimic uses his power before encounter cards are selected to discard down to the number of cards in his opponents hand. If Mimic attacks a player with 0 cards, he would have to discard his whole hand before the defense has to draw a new hand. This would then end the encounter. Am I playing that correctly.
 
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Michael Marvosh
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btblack wrote:
I have Another question regarding the defense having 0 cards.

Mimic uses his power before encounter cards are selected to discard down to the number of cards in his opponents hand. If Mimic attacks a player with 0 cards, he would have to discard his whole hand before the defense has to draw a new hand. This would then end the encounter. Am I playing that correctly.


Yes, if any effect causes the offense to lose all his encounter cards after the start of his encounter, his turn ends. Sucks to be him.

In response to the OP, as far as I understand it, earlier editions of the game cause the defense to draw a new hand immediately prior to his needing to play cards. However, FFG in their FAQ states that the defense draws a new hand earlier than that, which allows other effects to happen in between the drawing of the hand and the playing of the cards. Problem is, that ruling causes all sorts of timing problems. The way I play it is that the defense gets a new hand immediately prior to playing cards, and no effects can happen between the two that affect or effect (whichever it is) that hand.
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Just a Bill
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themaster408 wrote:
I was getting ready to take 8 new cards. Before I did, the offense used the Flare card "Fido" which is before selecting cards

Officially, this is incorrect. As Michael points out, the FAQ, in a "stealth ruling" under the entry for Trader, states that the defense getting a new hand is supposed to be the very first action of the Planning phase.

I think that is a bad ruling, though. It ...

* Adds unnecessary complexity (and two exceptions) to the Planning phase. (For more details, see the "hands" entry of the Cosmodex.)

* Forbids interesting gameplay interactions such as the one you're asking about, or Super Philanthropist forcing the defense to play the kicker x0.

* Forces the defense to discard all of his before-cards-selected effects he could otherwise have used milliseconds later, such as a kicker or any number of good flares like Wild Prophet or Wild Saboteur.

* In fact, many effects that could otherwise help the defense hang onto his valuable non-encounter cards a bit longer are prevented, such as Kamikaze, Wild Chosen, Wild Fido, Wild Hate, Wild Oracle, and others.

* Forces the defense to get a hand he isn't even going to need because the next action changes everything (such as Wild Loser ending the encounter).

* Takes away Mimic's flexibility to use his power before or after getting a new hand.

* Makes it fairly useless for Plant to graft Relic (for example).

For three decades the collection of a new hand by the defense was done on an as-needed and/or as-desired basis, depending on what was going on with other game effects. (The last sentence of the Wild Magician flare reinforces this.)


BUT, if it were not for that messy FAQ ruling, then Phil would be correct that the Timing Rule would favor the offense playing his flare.

btblack wrote:
Mimic uses his power before encounter cards are selected to discard down to the number of cards in his opponents hand. If Mimic attacks a player with 0 cards, he would have to discard his whole hand before the defense has to draw a new hand. This would then end the encounter. Am I playing that correctly.

Mimic must use his power before cards are selected, but nothing says he has to use it as early as possible in the Planning phase. I'm inclined to say he could wait until after the defense draws his new hand and then use his power. Of course this leads to one of those impasse situations where each player wants the other one to go first. The traditional (official) answer to this has generally been "well, somebody is just going to have to give in and go first".
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Bill Martinson wrote:

btblack wrote:
Mimic uses his power before encounter cards are selected to discard down to the number of cards in his opponents hand. If Mimic attacks a player with 0 cards, he would have to discard his whole hand before the defense has to draw a new hand. This would then end the encounter. Am I playing that correctly.

Mimic must use his power before cards are selected, but nothing says he has to use it as early as possible in the Planning phase. I'm inclined to say he could wait until after the defense draws his new hand and then use his power. Of course this leads to one of those impasse situations where each player wants the other one to go first. The traditional (official) answer to this has generally been "well, somebody is just going to have to give in and go first".


Despite the stealth FAQ on when defense refreshes, I'm going with the defense refreshing later in the Planning phase, when they need to play an encounter card, for all the reasons you've listed.

I really want to avoid "well, somebody is just going to have to give in and go first". Bad situation.

Wouldn't any 'before encounter cards are selected' effects need to go before a player is 'required to play a card'. If so, Mimic would have to use his power before the defense gets a new hand. Bad situation avoided.



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Just a Bill
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btblack wrote:
Despite the stealth FAQ on when defense refreshes, I'm going with the defense refreshing later in the Planning phase, when they need to play an encounter card, for all the reasons you've listed.

Same here. If I had a top 5 bad rulings list, that would probably be on it.

btblack wrote:
I really want to avoid "well, somebody is just going to have to give in and go first". Bad situation.

Agreed. I don't like it either. I also don't like Mimic getting screwed over because the Timing Rule probably forces him to use his power to mimic an empty hand, but I suppose that can't be prevented.

Still, I strongly recommend defining the defensive hand refresh as a regular, plain 'ol "before cards are selected" effect. This is still somewhat restrictive but closer to how we played in the old days, and avoids screwing the defense over when his alien power happens to be one that needs the refresh to happen either early or late in the segment. It will also allow for more interesting gameplay interactions by its sheer flexibility.
 
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