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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Rules

Subject: Creuss' Dimensional Splicer + Direct Hit? rss

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Chris Beller
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The game we played earlier (first actaul game and it took 4 players to play 7 hours). I attacked the Ghosts of Creuss player. He had the Dimensional Splicer Racial Tech. He hits me with that racial tech, damages my flagship, then immediately plays Direct Hit to destroy my flagship.



That is the correct way to play that, right? He COULD use the Dimensional Splicer to damage my flagship, then play the Direct Hit AC to destroy it?



Also, what about his flagship? There was no wormhole in the system, other than his flagship. Does that count as a Wormhole for the purpose of the Dimensional Splicer tech?



Thanks



Chris
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Scott Lewis
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MythicalMino wrote:
The game we played earlier (first actaul game and it took 4 players to play 7 hours). I attacked the Ghosts of Creuss player. He had the Dimensional Splicer Racial Tech. He hits me with that racial tech, damages my flagship, then immediately plays Direct Hit to destroy my flagship.



That is the correct way to play that, right? He COULD use the Dimensional Splicer to damage my flagship, then play the Direct Hit AC to destroy it?

Yes, as it happens during combat, and thus eligible for Direct Hit!

Quote:
Also, what about his flagship? There was no wormhole in the system, other than his flagship. Does that count as a Wormhole for the purpose of the Dimensional Splicer tech?

I would say yes as well; he may treat it as if there's a wormhole there.
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Greycloak
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I would say that it definitely can be used with the Hil Colish's D Wormhole. It was one of the primary functions when I played the Ghosts, upgrade the Flagship.

As to it's interaction with Direct Hit, I don't have the wording of Direct Hit in front of me, so I can't say for sure it would depend on when you could play Direct Hit and what the Dimensional Splicer's hit is considered (pre-combat, outside of combat, etc.).
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Scott Lewis
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Aaron Kurtz wrote:
I would say that it definitely can be used with the Hil Colish's D Wormhole. It was one of the primary functions when I played the Ghosts, upgrade the Flagship.

As to it's interaction with Direct Hit, I don't have the wording of Direct Hit in front of me, so I can't say for sure it would depend on when you could play Direct Hit and what the Dimensional Splicer's hit is considered (pre-combat, outside of combat, etc.).


Direct Hit is played: "Immediately after the ship has been damaged in a Space Battle in which you are participating."

Dimensional Splicer: "At the start of a battle in a system containing a Wormhole and at least 1 of your ships, you may assign 1 hit to 1 enemy ship of your choice."

Thus, my interpretation is that it does apply. Fear the Hil Colish with Dimensional Splicers!
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Greycloak
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Sounds good to me
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Christopher Beck
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Nice combo use! I hadn't thought about the free hit allowed by the Hil Colish.
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Lucas Skinner
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The ship destroyed in this way would still get to roll once before being removed correct?
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Scott Lewis
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Grand Champ wrote:
The ship destroyed in this way would still get to roll once before being removed correct?

No, as it's destroyed at the start of combat, before the first round. It would be similar to being destroyed by Assault Cannon or Anti-Fighter Barrage.
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Stefan Sasse
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That's very hard...you really can't attack the Hil Colish with Carriers then.
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Brian Petersen
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The fighters will stay til the end of combat, since battle started, but you can't exactly land without Stasis Capsules or 2 carriers, and let one of them a-splode. I think with Creuss, you'll be more concerned with annihilating their flagship in space than taking their planets. Not all of their systems can have wormholes in them at once.
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StefanSasse wrote:
That's very hard...you really can't attack the Hil Colish with Carriers then.

With "a" carrier, would probably be more accurate. Bringing in multiple carriers and you'll probably be fine

But the carrier bit is unrelated to the Direct Hit (unless you are Sol)
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Stefan Sasse
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Yeah, you're right with that Sigma, sorry Thanks anyway. But GF on such a Carrier would die, right? I always was under the impression that everything on the Carrier, including fighters, dies the instant the Carrier is killed.
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JH
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Capacity doesn't apply to Fighters during space battles, but any Fighters left unsupported after a battle is over will die. Other units die with the Carrier. Base game rulebook, page 29.
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StefanSasse wrote:
Yeah, you're right with that Sigma, sorry Thanks anyway. But GF on such a Carrier would die, right? I always was under the impression that everything on the Carrier, including fighters, dies the instant the Carrier is killed.

Like Justin said, the fighters would survive until the end of the battle. The GFs would die instantly.

With PDS fire and Space Mines, if you took the hit to the Carrier the fighters WOULD die, because those happen before the Space Combat step; but since the Dimensional Splicer is at the "start of a battle", the rules do allow them to remain without support for the remainder of the battle
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Ryan Caputo
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I really can't stand the wording on this new stuff.

Treat 'as if' it had a wormhole. Seems like an incomplete thought, like designer notes made it on the end product.

They should have said "this ship may generate a D wormhole" or something.
The way it is worded sounds like it is not a real wormhole, but instead it is like a wormhole for a specific purpose, like movement from the other D wormhole (but never stated). Not sure if they meant it to be an actual wormhole or the purpose of cards, objectives and techs. It's not an actual wormhole. No wormhole is ever placed on the map. Obviously as it stands, yea it's legal, but just seems like another incomplete rule. Anymore, I just don’t know.

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JH
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I doesn't seem incomplete to me. It's not a wormhole in the normal sense; it's the ship serving as one. Like a beacon, to my mind.
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Ryan Caputo
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Exaclty my point!! So you are saying it is NOT a wormhole, so a Tech or tactic card that requires an actual wormhole shouldn't work. When a card says, 'a system containing a wormhole' who says it means containing a wormhole or .....

Sarcasmorator wrote:
not a wormhole in the normal sense; it's the ship serving as one. Like a beacon, to my mind.


Not sure if they meant those types of Tech or tactic cards to work with the flag ship, as I said before, incomplete. Thank you
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Scott Lewis
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I'm not sure what you are getting at; it seems pretty clear to me as well. "As if" just means "there's no actual wormhole token or symbol, but you are allowed to treat the system in all regards like any other Wormhole system." There seems nothing to be "incomplete" about it as written.

The "you may" part emphasizes that only YOU get this benefit, and that it's an OPTIONAL benefit. But I see nothing that says it's only treated "as if" it's got a D wormhole system for moving through it only.

I'm not really sure what the ambiguity is here. There may be some unclear bits with Hil Colish, but I don't think this is one of them. What exactly did you want it to say that would be supposedly be more "complete"?
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Ryan Caputo
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I'm not sure what you are getting at; it seems pretty clear to me as well. "As if" just means "there's no actual wormhole token or symbol, but you are allowed to treat the system in all regards like any other Wormhole system." There seems nothing to be "incomplete" about it as written.

The "you may" part emphasizes that only YOU get this benefit, and that it's an OPTIONAL benefit. But I see nothing that says it's only treated "as if" it's got a D wormhole system for moving through it only.

I'm not really sure what the ambiguity is here. There may be some unclear bits with Hil Colish, but I don't think this is one of them. What exactly did you want it to say that would be supposedly be more "complete"?


Because the tech card says it needs 'to contain a wormhole' he Hil does not have a wormhole. Just because it's 'as if' it had a wormhole doesn't make it contain one, limiting it's uses. If they wanted to be an actual wormhole for all purposes they should have said it's a wormhole not a 'as if' it's a wormhole like noted "a beacon". I say it might be for movement only because the rules stating wormhole movement is a general one, while cards, have specific requirements for use.

A card stating it must 'contain', says it needs a placed wormhole token, just as the use of 'as if' means you don't need to place a token. Show me the token in your system, allowing you to use the tech, and I will take the hit.

The tech, which came with the expansion and is for the race, should have been more specific or at least written different, or the Flag ship should have been, heck give us a token to travel with the Hil. A perfect example is on the Ghost race sheet,"treat A & B 'as if' they are adjacent" They are not actualy adjacent, you treat them as if they are. Same as 'as if' on the Hil flag ship card, is not an actual wormhole, so cards needing an actual wormhole by stating 'containing a wormhole' would not apply.

How about "You may place a D-class wormhole in this ship's system. When this ship moves the wormhole moves with the ship to it's destination'

or

"This ship can generate a D-class wormhole, the wormhole moves with the ship."

or simply

'You may treat this ship as a D Class wormhole'

I am thinking the hil's 'beacon' was meant to be for warp travel. And things like gravity drive, race techs, objectives, and tactic cards were probably not part of it's design.

Or at least being devil's advocate.
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Scott Lewis
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Be that as it may, I still think you are reading FAR too much into that phrase, and "as if" means that it's treated for all effects as if it was really there. IE, it's simply a way of saying "there's no printed wormhole, since it moves around, but it's there anyway".

Your wordings could have implications that aren't intended. Treating a ship as a wormhole? That has no precedent, and would lead to questions. What does "generate" mean, in game terms? And having to put a physical token where the Hil Colish is, which goes wherever it goes is just fiddly and redundant.

If "as if" didn't mean that it's treated exactly the same as printed wormholes, where would you draw the line? To move through a wormhole, the wormhole has to be there, too; if you take "as if" that far, the same would apply to ALL wormhole effects, you can't just pick-and-choose which ones would still apply and which ones wouldn't.
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Ryan Caputo
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The tech says it must contain a wormhole, show me the A, B, or D token committing the system to a wormhole, until then the tech is invalid towards the Hil.

Saying the Hil can generate or may be treated as a wormhole, has no confusing implication what so ever. In this way the Hil becomes the token validating the tech.

This wouldn't be an issue if written correctly, since it was asked and can be argued, it is an issue.
 
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ryolacap wrote:
The tech says it must contain a wormhole, show me the A, B, or D token committing the system to a wormhole, until then the tech is invalid towards the Hil.

The rules for movement through wormholes also say that you can move to another system "containing" a wormhole. Using your same logic, show me where the rules allow you to move through the Hil Colish's wormhole, but then block other effects.

Show me where the rules say it needs an A, B, or D token commiting the system to a wormhole, as opposed to the Hil Colish, which treats the system "as if" said wormhole was there.

There is no mechanical difference between having a physically printed wormhole, and having the Hil Colish treat it "as if" one was there; the only difference is the presence of a physical symbol - which is completely unnecessary.


Other effects which use "as if":
- Experimental Battlestations: you treat a Space Dock "as if" the dock were a PDS for the effects of the card. This means the Dock gets ALL the benefits of PDS during the shot, including techs, bonuses, penalties, etc. (The FAQ confirms this is what is meant, and again uses the phrase "as if")
- Lancara Ssodu: The ship can attack "as if" it were 2 PDS units. Same thing as above.
- Van Hauge: Admittedly, this one is a bit more vague as to how to use them "as fighters", I think it's pretty clear that they participate like fighters.
- Sanctuary Shield: "As if" it were an empty system. While the "empty system" part may be a misnomer as I think the intent was you are just ignoring the "hazard" part (not enemy ships), it's still clear that for the effects of movement through the tile, you treat it "as if" there were no nebulae, Supernovas, etc, in the system.
- Facilities: You treat the planet "as if" the number printed were one higher. This applies to all effects; for Refineries, this increases the production value as well. Also, it can be captured "as if" it were a Space Dock (meaning, following the relevant rules for capturing Space Docks).

FAQ: If you get a "free" Space Dock, or capture one, it's treated "as if" you built it (IE, following the normal rules, meaning you can't build at it later that turn).
- Advanced Fighters lets fighters block systems "as if" they were other ships.


I think it's pretty clear what "as if" means in all those cases - for all relevant purposes, the proxy effect is there. I don't see anything to remotely indicate that it's any different than the Hil Colish; the system is treated "as if" there was a wormhole there - and thus, for all game purposes that refer to wormholes, that system has one for all intents and purposes.

Show me someplace where "as if" means something different than this in the game.
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sigmazero13 wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
The tech says it must contain a wormhole, show me the A, B, or D token committing the system to a wormhole, until then the tech is invalid towards the Hil.

The rules for movement through wormholes also say that you can move to another system "containing" a wormhole. Using your same logic, show me where the rules allow you to move through the Hil Colish's wormhole, but then block other effects.

Show me where the rules say it needs an A, B, or D token commiting the system to a wormhole, as opposed to the Hil Colish, which treats the system "as if" said wormhole was there.

There is no mechanical difference between having a physically printed wormhole, and having the Hil Colish treat it "as if" one was there; the only difference is the presence of a physical symbol - which is completely unnecessary.


Other effects which use "as if":
- Experimental Battlestations: you treat a Space Dock "as if" the dock were a PDS for the effects of the card. This means the Dock gets ALL the benefits of PDS during the shot, including techs, bonuses, penalties, etc. (The FAQ confirms this is what is meant, and again uses the phrase "as if")
- Lancara Ssodu: The ship can attack "as if" it were 2 PDS units. Same thing as above.
- Van Hauge: Admittedly, this one is a bit more vague as to how to use them "as fighters", I think it's pretty clear that they participate like fighters.
- Sanctuary Shield: "As if" it were an empty system. While the "empty system" part may be a misnomer as I think the intent was you are just ignoring the "hazard" part (not enemy ships), it's still clear that for the effects of movement through the tile, you treat it "as if" there were no nebulae, Supernovas, etc, in the system.
- Facilities: You treat the planet "as if" the number printed were one higher. This applies to all effects; for Refineries, this increases the production value as well. Also, it can be captured "as if" it were a Space Dock (meaning, following the relevant rules for capturing Space Docks).

FAQ: If you get a "free" Space Dock, or capture one, it's treated "as if" you built it (IE, following the normal rules, meaning you can't build at it later that turn).
- Advanced Fighters lets fighters block systems "as if" they were other ships.


I think it's pretty clear what "as if" means in all those cases - for all relevant purposes, the proxy effect is there. I don't see anything to remotely indicate that it's any different than the Hil Colish; the system is treated "as if" there was a wormhole there - and thus, for all game purposes that refer to wormholes, that system has one for all intents and purposes.

Show me someplace where "as if" means something different than this in the game.

sigmazero13 wrote:

Experimental Battlestations: you treat a Space Dock "as if" the dock were a PDS for the effects of the card.

So I guess you can place the space dock on a carrier and transport it to another system?
Not at all the same, the card action card is stating 'as if'. As opposed to relying on a statement from another card, and gives specific instructions on how to use it.

You could say, the Aborec GFs build units 'as if' they are space docks, but would that action card be legal to use with the Aborec GFs?
sigmazero13 wrote:

Lancara Ssodu: The ship can attack "as if" it were 2 PDS units -

Yet everyone concludes that PDS techs do not apply to the flag ship
sigmazero13 wrote:

Facilities: You treat the planet "as if" the number printed were one higher. This applies to all effects; for Refineries, this increases the production value as well. Also, it can be captured "as if" it were a Space Dock (meaning, following the relevant rules for capturing Space Docks).

Ok - once again no argument since it is completly different. As if applies correctly - not printed but like it is - not a space dock but captured the same, but you cant turn around and produce units from the facility. Also, it is represented by a facilities card.
sigmazero13 wrote:

Advanced Fighters lets fighters block systems "as if" they were other ships.

Once again not real capital ships but specificly tell you they can blockade - are the ships represented on the map? The ruling uses 'as if' in a specific ruling, where is the specifics saying the Hil's "beacon" should be treated for all purposes as a Wormhole?
sigmazero13 wrote:

If you get a "free" Space Dock, or capture one, it's treated "as if" you built it (IE, following the normal rules, meaning you can't build at it later that turn)


Again you didn't build it, but it is like you did, so do you replace it with one of your space docks or do you get to keep it as is? Once again its on the map and represented as a space dock, what happens when you can not represent it by a space dock unit? Where is the wormhole on the map for the Hil. [/q]

In the case of actual wormholes 'as if' is never used, the word 'containing' is used to define a system WITH a worhole, which is represented by the system tile or is a token. Where in the OLD FAQ or rules, does a non wormhole system in any way contain a wormhole, when? The only time is if a wormhole is on the map or when it is represented by a token.


The only valid argument is the Lancara Ssodu, and it has already been concluded that the PDS techs do NOT apply, unless you are saying they do. In Fact, thank you, for pointing out that the 'as if' on this flag ship, EXCLUDES all other tech except deep space cannon. WHY, because it is NOT an actual PDS, only acts as one for the specific purpose.

You are giving specific rulings, trying to prove a rule that does not exsist.

The question comes down to..
Is it an actual wormhole? Which would validate for techs, objectives, a tactics cards.
or
Is it 'like' a wormhole, as in a beacon of some sort? Which invalidates it for those situations where it specificly states a wormhole needed to fill the requirements.

The reason I say it seems incomplete is because, people seem to think it as a beacon, and not a real wormhole, which means there are incomplete instructions on how to use it. It is why question came up in the first place

 
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Brian Petersen
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Experimental Battlestations is used specifically when an enemy activates a system you control, after he has finished moving his ships in. It's effects last until the space battle begins. I don't have the exact wording of the card in front of me. I don't believe the SD remains treated as 3 PDSs while the enemy attempts to invade.

Has FFG stated whether or not Lancara Ssodu EXCLUDES all other tech except Deep Space Cannon, and does not just grant the flagship DSC even if the player does not already have that technology? To have a tech that will benefit the flagship, the Xxcha would already have to research DSC to get Graviton Laser Systems or Magen Defense Grids. Not everyone concludes that "as if it were X PDS units with DSC tech upgrade" means the flagship has DSC and no other technologies, regardless of the techs the Xxcha possess.

Experimental Battlestations uses the same wording. "as if it were X PDS units." The FAQ ruling on that AC is that they receive all technologies that affect PDS units.

Beating a dead horse here, the AC and the flagship are treated "as if" there were X PDS units in the system. There is not a SD and 3 PDS units on its planet (thus violating the rules for # of PDS units on one planet) the board for a second, just the SD on its planet, firing some shots. There are no physical tokens or plastic pieces for the 2 PDS units the flagship fires as. They would also violate the rules that PDS can only fire from planets, because the flagship can fire from an empty system.

"As if" in the rules means all intents and purposes. The extra "You may" means the Ghosts can choose when to count the Hil system as though it has a D-wormhole and disallows other players from treating the Hil system as though it has a D-wormhole in it, unless of course the Hil is in the home systems or a system containing an a or b wormhole.

Saying arbitrarily that the Arborec GFs build "as if" they are SDs is not in the rules, so it's a moot point. The rules will probably state something along the lines of "Like SDs, the Arborec GFs are limited by Build/Production Capacity. 2 GFs may not pool their build capacity to produce 2 GFs for 1 resource. Like SDs and the refresh fighter planet, Arborec GFs may not produce space units while enemy ships are present. Arborec GFs do not benefit from technologies, action cards, objective cards, or strategy cards that pertain to SDs."

Van Huage definitely needs a long paragraph in the FAQ due to technologies, Anti-fighter barrage, and GFs on the ground coming up and back down.
 
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TomBoombs wrote:

Van Huage definitely needs a long paragraph in the FAQ due to technologies, Anti-fighter barrage, and GFs on the ground coming up and back down.


I agree, that is the only point I am trying to make, plus looking for any holes that need to be closed. I am not saying any of it is right or wrong, I am arguing the other side to see if it needs to be in the FAQ. It just seems they stopped one sentence short on a lot of the new material.
 
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