Ben Stanley
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I posit that the interpretation of rules by the very designer of the game does not make sense. I know that is a bold assertion. Let me see if I can support it.



The rules are explicit that players can take their entitled actions in any order: "It is possible to alternate actions (example: recruit, built [sic] and recruit again)." (Cyclades, English rules, p.3).

Despite the clear and intuitive rule, the FAQ and the designer have been emphatic that the free recruiting must occur first, but then all other allowed actions can be done in any order. However, they conclude, if one starts the turn with eight troops on the board, he or she gets no free troop and in consequence cannot recruit more troops.

FabienC in FAQ (emphasis added) wrote:
If all eight of your soldiers/ships are already on the board and you go to Ares/Poseidon, you don't get the free soldier/ship and cannot buy additional ones.

Here is my counter-example that I believe highlights the ludicrousy of that rule:

If I have won the favor of Ares, and have seven (7) troops on the board, I can take the free recruitment (giving me eight (8) troops), launch an attack for 1 GP against an island controlled by an opponent to which I have a fleet chain, win that island but suffer casualties, recruit one, two, or even three more troops, and press another attack to another target island where I have a chain of connecting fleets, and easily win the game, fielding a total of eleven (11) troops at various points in my turn!

(obviously never more than eight at a single time, though)

In contrast, am I to accept that if I have won the favor of Ares, and have eight (8) troops on the board at the start of my turn, I cannot take the free recruitment, and further still if I pursue my attack and lose some troops, I cannot take the subsequent recruitments, either (whether free or purchased), simply because in this scenario I had my maximum troop allocation at the start of my turn, instead of immediately after taking my free recruitment?

In short, I have two questions:

(1) Have I correctly read how you understand the game to work?

and

(2) Does anyone think that makes sense? You are in a dramatically worse position in the game if you have eight troops or fleets on the board than if you have seven?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schenck
United States
Dayton
Ohio
flag msg tools
GO BUCKS!
badge
Stop touching me!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regarding not being able to buy troops after fighting for a bit and losing some, yeah I agree that's crap -- even if it is the "official" rule. If they're available, you should be able to buy them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Pedersen
Denmark
Copenhagen N.
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You are reading way too much into this.
The quoted answer simply says you cannot recruit or buy troops, if you have all your soldiers on the map.
It doesn't say you can't recruit later in the round if you go below 8.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Stanley
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's one of those times when the "official rule" really doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what the clarification that the free recruitment must occur first even adds or what problem it was meant to address, but I am quite convinced it adds a new and serious problem in the counter-intuitive and illogical result that it is better to have less troops (and other resources) in some relatively common situations.

dbc- wrote:
You are reading way too much into this.
The quoted answer simply says you cannot recruit or buy troops, if you have all your soldiers on the map.
It doesn't say you can't recruit later in the round if you go below 8.

So, your intrepretation, Anders, is that at 8 troops on board at the start of my Ares turn, I lose out on my free troop, but if I lose troops in battles, I can still purchase replacements (for 2, 3, and then 4 GP)?

I think that is more reasonable than what I took as Fabien's position from multiple threads and under the auspice of designer sanction. But I may have misread his intent.

I personally believe that the superior rule is that the free recruitment does not have to be the first thing that occurs in your turn. That is more equitable, elegant, and reasonable in my view in a myriad of ways.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabien Conus
Switzerland
Geneva
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Blue Steel wrote:

dbc- wrote:
You are reading way too much into this.
The quoted answer simply says you cannot recruit or buy troops, if you have all your soldiers on the map.
It doesn't say you can't recruit later in the round if you go below 8.

So, your intrepretation, Anders, is that at 8 troops on board at the start of my Ares turn, I lose out on my free troop, but if I lose troops in battles, I can still purchase replacements (for 2, 3, and then 4 GP)?


That's exactly how it is. Bottom line is: if you have 8 troops on the board, you can't hire more (and it's the same for ships).

And yes, the "free stuff" has to be taken first.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Stanley
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the quick reply, Fabien. It's good to know that you don't believe all "paid recruitments" are barred simply because the free one was disallowed (due to what I consider a bad rule).

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard a reason or justification for the "free must come first" addition to the rules?

I will simply house rule it away, as it makes no sense to me and seems to introduce a lot of problems to the game, but I am curious why it got added in the first place because I cannot see any rationale for it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabien Conus
Switzerland
Geneva
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Blue Steel wrote:

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard a reason or justification for the "free must come first" addition to the rules?


I can't remember exactly why Bruno wanted it that way.

But you can imagine situations, for example with Athena, where this might be important (for example if you have three philosophers but no room for a metropolis).

I'll ask him the next time I see him.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason H
Canada
flag msg tools
FabienC wrote:
Blue Steel wrote:

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard a reason or justification for the "free must come first" addition to the rules?


I can't remember exactly why Bruno wanted it that way.

But you can imagine situations, for example with Athena, where this might be important (for example if you have three philosophers but no room for a metropolis).

I'll ask him the next time I see him.


I would assume its due to Athena, as you've mentioned the timing of when you receive a philosopher can be important. I imagine its carried on with the other gods in order to provide consistency.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Stanley
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FabienC wrote:
I can't remember exactly why Bruno wanted it that way.

But you can imagine situations, for example with Athena, where this might be important (for example if you have three philosophers but no room for a metropolis).

Oh, it's certainly very important if that's the rule people want to play by, and there is no question it has major impacts on the game decisions and creates critical dilemmas during the auction. I just question whether they are good impacts.

I appreciate you asking him. I could see a rule that requires the player to use the free recruit of each God at some point during the turn, even when using that free recruit is detrimental, though I generally disfavor nuanced traps that penalize inexperienced players whose strategic thinking is otherwise sound (because they assume that the benefits of their bids should be beneficial or at least optional).

But making it both mandatory and first creates counter-intuitive, anti-thematic, and unrealistic penalties and reduces interesting game decisions and clever plays to mitigate those unintended penalties from actions that ordinarily provide benefits.

It strikes me as odd design when so many other elements of the game are so brilliant and impressive from a design perspective.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Voidpilgrim Voidpilgrim
msg tools
mbmb
If we are to take the "sad road",then the rule book should feature a paragraph tile:" Max unit penalty" or some such, even going so far as to advise "Never max out troop or ship counters, ..."

But of corse the current controller of Ares can gather replacements! arrrh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.