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Subject: Dominion OP Knock Out rss

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Jonathan C
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So you think that Dominion (or Dominion expansion) "Kingdom Card" is over-powered, and you've decided never to include it in your games again?

I say let's identify the 10 most over-powered cards (or 2-card combos), put 'em in the ring together, and have it out once and for all. It could get ugly, but that's the point!

Respond to this post and nominate your OP-Kingdom Card (or combo) of choice. After we collectively decide to close the nominations at some arbitrary date, everyone can "Thumb" their top ten. Then we can give it a shot in our respective gaming groups and survey the collateral damage.

It won't be scientific, but it could be interesting!



 
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Corey Douglas

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King's Court!
 
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Jack Rudd
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There aren't any cards I won't have in my games.

King's Court - King's Court - Goons/Militia/Ghost Ship - Masquerade is probably the ultimate combo, mind.
 
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Edward Montgomery
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Ambassador
Masquerade
Possession
Golem
King's Court
Mountebank
Fishing Village
Council Room
Black Market
Saboteur
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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I'll play with any of them but Pirate Ship will change a game big time. It has to be on the list.
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enfynet enfynet
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I think the point is that cards are available to everyone. Black Market and Tournament have the ability to introduce cards that are overpowered compared to other cards available.
 
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Reverend Redd
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Any card with +2 Actions on it!
 
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Nakamura
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Minion - I just hate how Minions mess with my hand (I don't mind Possession that much because it is much harder to get and you get 5 cards afterwards).
 
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Gerald Katz
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I think Goons is undercosted at $6. It's too good. It would be better at $7. King's Court is ok at $7 but might still have been better at $8. It is way powerful, much more than Throne Room. I don't play with Saboteur or Possession. They are F-You cards that make the game unfun for me. Pirate Ship as well, but I can once in a while grudgingly just ignore it in a game and play around it. I like Tournament and the Prizes, but I am a bit annoyed that they are practically must buys. The Prizes don't give you an auto-win, but they help a lot. In a two player game, if one does not go for them or get can't get the Tournament/Province combo soon enough, they are at a disadvantage.

What I'm most annoyed about is friends who used to play the game don't anymore because they are burned out on new cards and just don't want to bother, regardless if only base set would be played. I still get to play the game (not counting isotropic), but it's not as easy to get a game going.

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Lukasz Biernat
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The most OP cards in my group:

1. gold
2. silver
3. province

We're on the edge of banning them from our games forever.
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Ido Abelman
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Colonies are the most OP cards ever! Get the most of these and you are very likely to win!

But really, I don't think there is any card that needs to be banned. I remember reading a post by donaldX about why he didn't nerf chapel (man I need to keep those posts in my bookmark so I can link to them) - Because everyone can buy them and it makes the game very different (and interesting). The cards that were proposed the most in this thread are goons and king's court. Both of these IMO makes the game interesting even if everyone goes for them.
The thing is, you don't win a game with goons or king's court alone. For goons, you need good +2 actions cards as well as a good draw engine and often some support cards. Building such a deck, balancing it and maintaining it even when all the coppers start flooding it requires skill and is very interesting IMO. If it would be summed by "first to get goons wins" then I would think about banning. But it isn't.
King's court too - of course you don't win with king's court alone - you need actions to triple! So the game could be won by the one who finds the best card to combo with king's court. I once triumphed my opponent with king's courted explorers! (really, when you have a province these can give you +9$ and 3 gold!). And there are also cards that aren't so good with king's court - see "The Kings Do Not Hold Court in Warehouses Award" here. And than there is the race to get the most king's courts itself, that is similar to the race for provinces and at least as interesting. And there's always that dilemma when you get to 8 - buy a province or a king's court?
Overall, these are single cards that only appear once in a while. When they do appear, they morph the game and force you to think differently. Which is a good thing, IMO.
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Jonathan C
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I'd be curious to know what sort of strategy you use to play around pirate ship. I've tried a few times, without success. Finally resigned myself to buying pirate ships as fast as the next guy. This is why this card seems a bit broken to me--if it's in the game, and its being purchased, it forces everyone to respond to it by adopting the same strategy. I've played in a game where one player bought 6 or so pirate ships, and despite my strategy of eliminating all coinage from my hand ASAP, it failed miserably.

Thanks for the good feedback!
 
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Jonathan C
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Biernath_John wrote:
The most OP cards in my group:

1. gold
2. silver
3. province

We're on the edge of banning them from our games forever.


awesome. So I guess we ought to include them, then, in the OP Knock-Out brawl
 
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Edward
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looleypalooley wrote:
I'd be curious to know what sort of strategy you use to play around pirate ship. I've tried a few times, without success. Finally resigned myself to buying pirate ships as fast as the next guy. This is why this card seems a bit broken to me--if it's in the game, and its being purchased, it forces everyone to respond to it by adopting the same strategy. I've played in a game where one player bought 6 or so pirate ships, and despite my strategy of eliminating all coinage from my hand ASAP, it failed miserably.

Thanks for the good feedback!

Here's a game where I crush my opponent's Pirate Ship strategy with +Coin; here's a game where I beat it via Hoard/Trade Route.

The key is that he usually can't get it to more than $3 or maybe $4, and you need to exploit the fact that he's thinning your deck by setting up Action chains that would otherwise take too long to set up. And in the late game, you can start buying Treasure again, because your chance of drawing it (via your Actions) are much, much higher than his chance of hitting it (cause of all your Actions).
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Jonathan C
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CBpegasus wrote:
Colonies are the most OP cards ever! Get the most of these and you are very likely to win!


Good observation. This past weekend I actually won holding fewer colonies than my opponents. With only the Prosperity expansion, and utilizing a couple of Bishops, I managed to keep my deck to ~15 cards the length of the game. In the end I had successfully exchanged all my coppers and estates for victory tokens and higher value money [silver and gold], had only a single province, a single colony, but a stash of some 35 victory tokens. Of course I had bought a lot of provinces along the way and then "sold" them for victory tokens 6-to-4. But this kept my deck really lean & mean.

What do people think of Bishop?
 
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Jonathan C
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theory wrote:
looleypalooley wrote:
I'd be curious to know what sort of strategy you use to play

Here's a game where I crush my opponent's Pirate Ship strategy with +Coin; here's a game where I beat it via Hoard/Trade Route.

The key is that he usually can't get it to more than $3 or maybe $4, and you need to exploit the fact that he's thinning your deck by setting up Action chains that would otherwise take too long to set up. And in the late game, you can start buying Treasure again, because your chance of drawing it (via your Actions) are much, much higher than his chance of hitting it (cause of all your Actions).


I remember trying to build up money in the late game, but maybe I was not experienced enough to make this strategy efficient. It sounds like it could work well, though, and I'm looking forward to trying it!
 
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Vince Lupo
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The game mutating cards can be fun to include, especially when you pit multiple game mutating cards out against each other.
 
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City + pretty much anything to slow your opponent down (Militia and the like, hell, even Cutpurse if there's not a good trasher to get rid of coppers).

The only card I won't play with is Possession. It just leads to some really dumb things (like remodeling a Province into a Province so I can gain one) and whether it's working for or against me, I just never feel like it's fun.
 
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Lukasz Biernat
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CBpegasus wrote:
Colonies are the most OP cards ever! Get the most of these and you are very likely to win!.


I think provinces are worse than colonies, because you shouldn't use colonies in every game, and with our poor d10 rolls, we rarely play with colony/platinum. That's what makes them bearable.

Province is pure evil though, totally unbalanced. Gold is not overpowered by itself, but the synnergy with province totally breaks the game. Buy silvers to buy golds to buy provinces. That's just so cheap.
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Matt N

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Biernath_John wrote:
CBpegasus wrote:
Colonies are the most OP cards ever! Get the most of these and you are very likely to win!.


I think provinces are worse than colonies, because you shouldn't use colonies in every game, and with our poor d10 rolls, we rarely play with colony/platinum. That's what makes them bearable.

Province is pure evil though, totally unbalanced. Gold is not overpowered by itself, but the synnergy with province totally breaks the game. Buy silvers to buy golds to buy provinces. That's just so cheap.


Agreed, although all the cards that currently give VP seem to be overpowered. It's like you need VP to win or something. I think there should be a Dominion variant where you only score points based on how many villages you play in a turn; that would be much more balanced.
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Greg Pratt
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JackRudd wrote:
There aren't any cards I won't have in my games.

King's Court - King's Court - Goons/Militia/Ghost Ship - Masquerade is probably the ultimate combo, mind.


I don't know... King's Court - King's Court - Wharf/Wharf/Wharf is pretty potent. Especially if you can manage to get a double set of those in your deck.
 
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enfynet enfynet
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2x KC - 3x "something good" is usually pretty ridiculous. Recently I double-KC'ed 3 Alchemists giving me all my cards and enough actions to play them. I didn't win but it was fun regardless.

Platinum is pretty powerful though.
 
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Martin DeOlden
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Thief

My group will not play with this card again.
The last game we used the highest score the winner had was 12VP and the game took forever. The card is too slow and disruptive beyond the other Kingdom cards we have played with.
 
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Mark Judd
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hadsil wrote:
I think Goons is undercosted at $6. It's too good. It would be better at $7.

If there were no +actions available (or King's Court/Throne Room), would you pay $7 for a Goons? I don't think so. Even at $6, it could be a tough choice between Goons and Gold when there are no +actions to get a nice engine going.

Quote:
King's Court is ok at $7 but might still have been better at $8. It is way powerful, much more than Throne Room.

In a Colonies game, perhaps King's Court is undercosted at $7, but it really depends on what other kingdom cards are available to pair up with it. If there are no Colonies available, would you ever purchase a King's Court instead of a Province for $8? Probably not.

Quote:

I don't play with Saboteur or Possession. They are F-You cards that make the game unfun for me.

Saboteur does nothing for the owner and if you focus more on money and victory cards, it isn't hard to defeat. Even in multiplayer, all players will be hit equally by it. As for Possession, you just have to change your strategy once it looks like the guy to your right is headed in that direction. Fill your deck with victory cards and Possessions of your own, and their Possessions won't net them more than a few $. I find it even more fun to hose your opponent's Possessions than it can be to Possess someone else. ("Want to play my hand - 2 Provinces, 2 Estates and a Possession? Go right ahead!")

Quote:

Pirate Ship as well, but I can once in a while grudgingly just ignore it in a game and play around it.

Really easy to work around when there are other +$ actions on the table.
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Mark Judd
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looleypalooley wrote:
I'd be curious to know what sort of strategy you use to play around pirate ship. I've tried a few times, without success. Finally resigned myself to buying pirate ships as fast as the next guy. This is why this card seems a bit broken to me--if it's in the game, and its being purchased, it forces everyone to respond to it by adopting the same strategy. I've played in a game where one player bought 6 or so pirate ships, and despite my strategy of eliminating all coinage from my hand ASAP, it failed miserably.

Thanks for the good feedback!

+$ actions are the way to go. If there are any decent trashing cards available, I like to use those. Stewards are especially nice because they can then be used for the $2 instead of treasure. I think one of the keys is knowing what cards you should trash and what you should keep. If you are Chapel-ing your deck and remove all the Estates early, chances are more likely that they will hit your remaining treasure with their pirates. There have been several times where I've kept my opponent's pirates at around $2 because I used Stewards to clean out my Coppers, keeping my Estates for just a little longer, and purchasing whatever actions I could - cycling ones such as Pearl Diver can be especially nice in this situation.
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