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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: german opening setup rss

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chris walsh
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Hey again.

Just a basic question: Can Germany set up (you know - actually initially deploy her units, in Fall 1939) in her minor allies Rumania, Bulgaria and Hungary?
Rule 25.6 gives the limitations on deployments in these nations but doesn't specifically answer 'yes' to this question.
It is noted that rule 3.36 is supposed to answer this ('...[a nation's] opening setup of units may be only in those controlled areas') but also that Germany (and Russia) doesn't have a 'control' category on it's scenario card - implying that '...those geographical areas, if any, that a nation controls in addition to its homeland.' ... are, in the case of Germany (and Russia), non-existant. (East Prussia, noted under 'Deployment Limits' on the scenario card, being the exception.)

It is also noted at rule 25.8 that the answer wrt Finland is 'yes'. And so the answer to my question is ditto. Yet, for one, we have never played this and are wondering about the thinking on this ... ie. can you work up a German invasion of, say, Greece in turn one from, say, Bulgaria?

On another note, our last game took 9 (real time) months to complete. It's so long ago it feels like another century. It ended with an Allied victory in Summer 1944 after the Germans lost their FSJR on a 2-1 shot on the Turkish Straits in Spring 1941. We are judging the early loss of this goldmine unit as a strategic factor in any game as it frees the Allies up to be seriously reckless in their subsequent play without fear of (ultimate) defeat. This turned out to be a huge advantage ... accruing little by little across every turn to finally (in this case) knocking an entire year off the 'regular' victory conditions.
There were three consecutive flip-flops in the game (Fa/Wi 41, W 41/Sp 42, and Sp/Su 42) with the Germans (unfortunately) taking the one in the middle ... and it was game over from there.
 
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sean dolbee
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I'll take a shot at this one.

I believe you can set up with limits,only 20 factors total can be in the countrys and Finland has other limits I believe only 5 can be in there so if 5 are in Finland then 15 can be deployed in the others.
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chris walsh
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Yeah thanks 123. And I guess we know this is so. But we have never, in 20 years, set up the Germans in this way (save the 3-3 in Finland). And I'm not too sure why ... perhaps our ways are too set in stone!

How's the game going?
 
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sean dolbee
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The Russians in the East have done an atrittion on the 61+ table rolled a 6 oh well can't win the all, but that should give me a few key hexes to take to hold back the Axis tide so the Americans and British can get to Paris by fall 42'.
I wait now for my opponent to place DAS before my Exploitaion.
The British WDF and 2CAN inf corp were sucsessfull in dislodging the German 11th inf Corp outside of Paris so at this time the British led by the 13 armor corps are tying to make there way to Paris it's slow going at this point seams the locals think the war is over and the British Cromwells and Shermans have been slowed down due to celebrations.
The Americans have been flying recon over the French city and it looks like the Germans are as prepared as they can be to Defend there stake in the West.
Vichy France still seams to be a pain in the side at this point(even though there just sitting there) it's that they can be activated with a 6 by the Axis so the faster we get to the Paris the better I have to deactvate them.
I'll post the Fall Allied turn when the Luftwaffe either stays on the ground of dares to take to the skys!
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Patrick Bauer
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I agree, Germany may indeed set up with up to 20 factors(but not more than 5 in Finland) in the Axis minors.

The only real reason to do this would be a first turn DoW on Russia. All I can say about that is, "Good luck with that, enjoy the quick game."

I hate wasting a 3-3 garrisoning Rumania and always SR a replacement there. I guess if you wanted to have all the replacements in the west (or just don't trust yourself to remember to SR a unit there) and intended to garrison with a 3-3 you could just start the game with one already in Rumania.
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Jersey Guys
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Your description of losing the German airborne on the Turkish straits brought back horrible memories of a similar game I played 30 years ago. Amazing how after all these years I still remember the pit in my stomach when that 2-1 battle went against me. I've never put the unit in that position again!
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chris walsh
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Thanks! Yeah I agree with the rep to Rumania. It's always too easy to forget ... well for me it is; never for my opponent it seems!

And just a curiosity - as our new game is opening up all kinds of strange and not very wonderful early strategies - is it common to DOW on a few minors in the west (I'm thinking Denmark and The Netherlands) just so concentrating an attrition on these powers specifically, on the 21+ table, can haul off both their units? I tried that on yesterday (rolled a '1' on the table while committing (merely) one 4-6 in Poland (together with 1x3-3 and 17 air to come through a gap near Warsaw at 2-1)) and it worked a treat. Problem was the fact that the full RAF (10 factors) could then intevene in both capitals and smash the Kriegsmarine in Kiel to smoking rubble and upended battleships.
Pro's and con's it seems - I'll be a-getting back at the RAF massively (he couldn't SR it back to England) and the benefits of occupation of 2 minors for 'free' seem huge. Yet I get a wrecked fleet out of it and quite small turn 1 builds (when you need all you can get plus more added on to protect from the potential Fall/Winter flip flop.)

Oh and one more thing - opponent wants to know if the Italian loan rule includes the loan IN the SR cost (if, say, it's an air SR'ing to Germany for defensive purposes in winter) or if the loan is one SR and the actual movement of the unit is another SR. The rule seems iffy on this.
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chris walsh
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brule600 wrote:
Your description of losing the German airborne on the Turkish straits brought back horrible memories of a similar game I played 30 years ago. Amazing how after all these years I still remember the pit in my stomach when that 2-1 battle went against me. I've never put the unit in that position again!


Ooops sorry! (For bringing back those terrible mems...) Personally I was the lucky one in this case; I was the Turks who fired back! It was a royal catastrophe though - it cost all the other attacking units as well, allowed for immediate British intervention, and set all his cunning plans and strategums back at least a year.
(But what can you do against the Fates ...?)

Hey good description of your game too - we both laughed at your notes!
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Stephen Rochelle
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cccw wrote:
Thanks! Yeah I agree with the rep to Rumania. It's always too easy to forget ... well for me it is; never for my opponent it seems!

And just a curiosity - as our new game is opening up all kinds of strange and not very wonderful early strategies - is it common to DOW on a few minors in the west (I'm thinking Denmark and The Netherlands) just so concentrating an attrition on these powers specifically, on the 21+ table, can haul off both their units? I tried that on yesterday (rolled a '1' on the table while committing (merely) one 4-6 in Poland (together with 1x3-3 and 17 air to come through a gap near Warsaw at 2-1)) and it worked a treat. Problem was the fact that the full RAF (10 factors) could then intevene in both capitals and smash the Kriegsmarine in Kiel to smoking rubble and upended battleships.
Pro's and con's it seems - I'll be a-getting back at the RAF massively (he couldn't SR it back to England) and the benefits of occupation of 2 minors for 'free' seem huge. Yet I get a wrecked fleet out of it and quite small turn 1 builds (when you need all you can get plus more added on to protect from the potential Fall/Winter flip flop.)

It's quite common for Germany to DoW Denmark, and depending on French setup, the Netherlands, in Fall 1939. Denmark allows Germany to position an airbase in G31/G32 as prep for a W39 paradrop on Oslo. The Netherlands allow Germany to reach 11-20 on the Attrition table without compromising her Polish operations, but note that the French deployment matters. If the French armor is in P25, Germany is virtually obligated to deploy infantry on the Rhine, which means that France (rather than the minors) can absorb any Attrition losses, something France is happy to do. See this session report for the Germans botching the Netherlands attack, or see this one for the Germans having to waste the Attrition roll against France.

It's not common (or, IMO, a good idea at all) for Germany to sacrifice her East Front plans to reach the 21-30 column on Western Attrition. Germany's goal in Poland is to get in and get out in one turn with max-odds attacks and never spend a BRP there again. Not taking Warsaw the first turn is going to ripple across the next three years for an aggressive German player:

* You're spending 15 BRPs on a W39 East Offensive. Germany spends out in 1939, so those BRPs could have built an air wing or a couple of armor units instead.
* You're committing armor and/or air in the East for an additional turn (probably air, since you've only made a one-hex incursion in the Fall). That means you spend W39 in the West facing Allied air superiority with only infantry for your strike force. You can take and hold Denmark/Netherlands with infantry, but you can't do that with Belgium or Luxembourg.
* By not holding Belgium at the 1940 YSS, you've lengthened your road to Paris. You start 1940 looking at 4 hexes to cross -- 2 turns of exploitation, assuming you're holding your airborne to untriple Paris, with no margin for error. Any setback dealt by the Allies and you're not occupying Paris until Fall 1940.
* Three full turns of offensives and continued builds puts Germany in real jeopardy of facing a late-year flip-flop when she lacks the BRPs to exploit it. Even a flip-flop where the Allies do nothing can be seriously disruptive -- suppose the Allies force a Summer/Fall flip-flop prior to the fall of Paris (a very real concern for me in the last game): Germany trivially occupies Paris in Fall but does not complete the conquest until the second half of Winter (the next Allied turn). Her Winter turn is heavily restricted by the need to maintain forces against the potential French counter-attack. She can't even begin redeploying to other fronts until 1941, putting the Allied 1942 reinforcements that much closer to entry.

As for the German Pearl Harbor: if you can trade BRPs with Britain, it's worth considering -- losing a 9FF means you can be much more liberal in scrapping with the Royal Navy, and you want to press the British economy as much as possible. However, you simply shouldn't be getting the chance. It's French bombers over Kiel that are the real problem, because French BRPs are virtually worthless. Solution? Base the navy in Konigsberg for the first turn.

cccw wrote:
Oh and one more thing - opponent wants to know if the Italian loan rule includes the loan IN the SR cost (if, say, it's an air SR'ing to Germany for defensive purposes in winter) or if the loan is one SR and the actual movement of the unit is another SR. The rule seems iffy on this.
You can read it either way. We've got 2 or 3 threads in the rules subforum this year alone on this topic, with this one being the first.
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chris walsh
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Hey thanks for this but a slight misunderstanding - we went thru the gap to GET Warsaw. So that side of things is all okay thanks! It turned out that needing only one 4-6 in Poland (1x4-6, 1x3-3, 17x1-4air = 24v12 = 2:1) gave a roll on the 21+ attrition table when 3x4-6 and 3x3-3 (=21) were squeezed into the 3 frontage hexes in Holland and Denmark. I agree with the rest of the analysis absolutely; there's no way you sacrifice Poland for 'only' another attrition table column.

As to French armour in P25, yes I was watching for it.

That late 1940 flip flop - we've had one of those once before and it saw the FSJR in London in Sp '41. It can still be a worry for the Allies imo.

Agree too with the French air (in this case it was away in Tunisia together with the 3-5!) I think the Germans want to look to be fighting solely the French if at all possible into 1940. Having to scrap with the RAF this early, while nice if they can be flattened, as they will be(!) is still not strictly necessary. And the problem (from experience) with the Kriegsmarine at Konigsburg is the freedom for the Brits to go at Bergen in Fall ... besides the other freedom of untouched fleet moves in the Atlantic on a possible pass option when the French offend.

Thanks for those sites - they were a great help!
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chris walsh
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dolbee123 wrote:
The Russians in the East have done an atrittion on the 61+ table rolled a 6 oh well can't win the all, but that should give me a few key hexes to take to hold back the Axis tide so the Americans and British can get to Paris by fall 42'.
I wait now for my opponent to place DAS before my Exploitaion.
The British WDF and 2CAN inf corp were sucsessfull in dislodging the German 11th inf Corp outside of Paris so at this time the British led by the 13 armor corps are tying to make there way to Paris it's slow going at this point seams the locals think the war is over and the British Cromwells and Shermans have been slowed down due to celebrations.
The Americans have been flying recon over the French city and it looks like the Germans are as prepared as they can be to Defend there stake in the West.
Vichy France still seams to be a pain in the side at this point(even though there just sitting there) it's that they can be activated with a 6 by the Axis so the faster we get to the Paris the better I have to deactvate them.
I'll post the Fall Allied turn when the Luftwaffe either stays on the ground of dares to take to the skys!


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