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Subject: New rule(s) for Pawns / Courts? rss

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Lacombe
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P.D.'s expressed concern that including both the Pawns and the Courts [as I recommend] makes them overpowered / too important.

He might be right. This is a common tendency when these cards are used in any Decktet game; the Pawns / Courts become the focus.

There are more of them than most ranks, they're higher than most ranks, and they're more flexible on account of their three suits.

Here are some ideas perhaps relevant [or not] to Conundrum to make these cards interesting but not quite so overbearing:

1) Pawns and Courts have no rank [if everything played to a trick is a Pawn or Court, a Court is considered to have the higher rank] ?

2) Pawns and Courts have no rank, but if one each with matching suits are played by one team to a trick, the pair has super-rank status ?

3) If played to close a trick and either of its three suits wins the trick, a Pawn causes the trick to be reduced to one card [winner still takes it] ?

4) If played to close a trick and either of its three suits wins the trick, a Court causes the trick to be split in two [each half given to one of the teams] ?

I want [with these options; still not sure if I'll adopt any] to limit the usefulness in trick-taking of Pawns / Courts [since they dominate the trick-taking as it is now].

I also want to provide something interesting for them to do, but not to the extent that they dramatically change the structure [hence, limiting the effect trigger to closing a trick].

 
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Lacombe
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I think #2 might be a bit too much.

What do y'all think of the others?
 
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P.D. Magnus
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With only the basic deck, it's possible to see the different ways the trick might close - for example, by noticing whether the missing suits are two-suit combinations that are more or less common. With the Pawns and Courts, every combination is possible and a trick can jump from three suits left to closed in one play.

So (for me) rank of Pawns and Courts isn't the big issue.

As an option, though, you might do this: Pawns and Courts cannot win a trick. If all suits are present with only Pawns and Courts, discard the trick; nobody scores for it. A Pawn adds its three suits to the trick. A Court adds six suits - each of its three suits, but twice.

This would amp up the trick-control power of Pawns and Courts, make Courts a bit different than Pawns, but not let them directly win tricks.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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So pd, if a pawn or court is played and the trick would gave been closed, continue playing until one more non pawn/court card is played?
 
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Lacombe
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kvenosdel wrote:
So pd, if a pawn or court is played and the trick would gave been closed, continue playing until one more non pawn/court card is played?


Yeah... I think I was confused by that bit [third paragraph, right?] at first, too, but I think I got it.

Best I reckon, he was proposing a counter to my ruling on a trick consisting only of Pawns / Courts.
 
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Lacombe
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How if Pawns / Courts removed suits from the trick in some way?

[Just tossing ideas out; I like the game as is, even with them.]
 
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P.D. Magnus
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kvenosdel wrote:
So pd, if a pawn or court is played and the trick would gave been closed, continue playing until one more non pawn/court card is played?


I was suggesting that a trick with only Pawns or Courts would end without a winner. If the rule is that the person who closes the trick leads the next trick, then there is no problem with this. The cards from the trick would be set aside, and whoever closed it would lead a new trick.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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pmagnus wrote:
kvenosdel wrote:
So pd, if a pawn or court is played and the trick would gave been closed, continue playing until one more non pawn/court card is played?


I was suggesting that a trick with only Pawns or Courts would end without a winner. If the rule is that the person who closes the trick leads the next trick, then there is no problem with this. The cards from the trick would be set aside, and whoever closed it would lead a new trick.


Oh yes that was what I understood as well. I was speaking to a trick in general that would normally be closed by a Pawn or Court. Maybe I was misunderstanding but I understood your suggestion to be that a Pawn or Court can never be used to close a trick (when there are other rank cards already played). Was this not your intention?
 
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P.D. Magnus
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kvenosdel wrote:
Maybe I was misunderstanding but I understood your suggestion to be that a Pawn or Court can never be used to close a trick (when there are other rank cards already played). Was this not your intention?


No. The idea was just that a Pawn or Court could not win.

Keep in mind that the high card in the most numerous suit wins the trick, regardless of what closes it.
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Daniël Muilwijk
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One option not mentioned yet is that when I design a game and find some cards too powerfull I try to seek a solution in rearranging the card order. I know this isn't done with the Decktet very often and some people might even find it a 'weird' solution, but you see it happen a lot in traditional card games.

For some games it might work to play with Crown-Ace-Numbers-Pawn-Court, for other games it might work to play with Pawn-Court-Numbers-Crown-Ace. In some games it is just logical to let the 'many suit' cards be the high cards, in other games it is more logical to let them be the low cards.

I agree though that the ideal solution is to maintain the usual ranking order and work around that constraint, if reasonably possible.
 
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P.D. Magnus
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Seabie wrote:

For some games it might work to play with Crown-Ace-Numbers-Pawn-Court, for other games it might work to play with Pawn-Court-Numbers-Crown-Ace. In some games it is just logical to let the 'many suit' cards be the high cards, in other games it is more logical to let them be the low cards.


There was a game we were playtesting here that did this, and it felt very... unDecktet.

Changing the order of cards feels to me like leaving out part of the Basic Deck. It would have to be a hellaciously brilliant game for me to accept it. More to the point, there's usually a better solution.

The solution is often to give some of the extreme ranks a different function, so that they don't need to count as either high or low. As an example, which also illustrates using all of the basic deck: Only the number ranks are dealt out in Snakebit, and originally it only used the Aces. It now uses the Aces and Crowns both, to determine poison and trump suits. We've really enjoyed it.
 
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