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Subject: Building off a sea lane rss

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Roland Wood
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Here is the situation. Green builds a port. There is a ship space connected to that port by a sea lane and the location color of that ship space is brown. So Blue builds a ship at that location using a brown card. The before mentioned sea lane now has a port and a ship at both ends and there is another sea lane leading away from blue's ship to another port space. Blue has one more action and a port card in hand. Is Blue considered to be connected to that port space from his ship so as to be able to build a port using his port card?

For those not wanting to read the entire thread here are the important answers by those who know...


Frog1 wrote:
This situation is clarified with the rules to the Japan map.

Yes, you could build in the connected port using an industry card, with the shipping lane counting as your own railway.

Martin



snoozefest wrote:
If my interpretation is correct, then maybe it would be easier to explain the rule as follows:
1. a sea lane is virtual; it comes into play if a port is built in the connected city
2. when using an industry card to build, a sea lane counts as a railway counter belonging to the player(s) with either an industry tile built in one of the locations on either end of the sea lane, or a railway counter connected to one of those locations.

Is that consistent with all the various rulings?


Yes...as it turns out you had it 100% spot on!


Frog1 wrote:
The wording in the rules should ahve been a little tighter. A sea lane has the potential to be a rail link for any player, but only if they have a counter at one end. You cannot use it to build from using an industry card if you do not have one of your counters at one of the two ends (one of these counters could be a rail link).

Hope that helps.

Martin
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Jack Francisco
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I believe it depends on the card that is played. If you play a ship card, it has to be connected to one of your ports. If you play a color card, it just needs to be connected to a port, regardless of the owner.
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Bill Bennett
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I just re-read the (2nd edition) industry card rules and I would say that the answer is no. Those things that count as a connection to a location are specifically listed: a railway counter to the location or an industry counter already in the location (where you can build more than one counter or are overbuilding). It does not mention a ship/sea lane as a connection that can be used with an industry card build.
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Martin Wallace
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This situation is clarified with the rules to the Japan map.

Yes, you could build in the connected port using an industry card, with the shipping lane counting as your own railway.

Martin
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Roland Wood
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Thank you for all the replies....I'll go with Martin's answer.
 
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Roliander wrote:
Thank you for all the replies....I'll go with Martin's answer.


Me too. I guess I'll have to make a little note in my rulebook to cover this situation.
 
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Clement Tey
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Ok, I have a related question! The rules state:
A sea lane counts as a rail link that belongs to all players for the purposes of building with industry cards, e.g. one of your ship counters would allow you to use an industry card to build in any connected location, but only if there is a port there or you intend to build a port with your action.

So if it belongs to all players, why do I still need to have one of my own ship counters there first?

Following on from OP's example, Blue owns the ship. Can Red then use an industry card to build to a connected port even though he has no other links to it but Blue's sea lane?
 
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Request for a clarification: The sea lane between Tokyo and Hakodato has two ship spaces. Is the building of 1 ship sufficient to 'activate' the sea lane or do both ships have to be placed?


Thank you
Charlie
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Roland Wood
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princemousey wrote:
Ok, I have a related question! The rules state:
A sea lane counts as a rail link that belongs to all players for the purposes of building with industry cards, e.g. one of your ship counters would allow you to use an industry card to build in any connected location, but only if there is a port there or you intend to build a port with your action.

So if it belongs to all players, why do I still need to have one of my own ship counters there first?

Following on from OP's example, Blue owns the ship. Can Red then use an industry card to build to a connected port even though he has no other links to it but Blue's sea lane?


Good question! As per Martin we know that the following is okay.

Port-----Ship----- [ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Port with no other connection other than the sea lane and using an industry card.



Are the following also legal using industry cards and no other connection other than the sea lane? Depending on the way you read the rule any of these could or could not be legal...

Port-----Ship-----[ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Port (is the sea lane a rail link for building that belongs to all players no matter whose tokens occupy the locations?)

Port-----Ship----- [ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Factory (Is a port the only industry that can be built off of a sea lane in this manner?)

Port-----Ship-----[ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Iron Works (Combination of both issues...)
 
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Roliander wrote:

Good question! As per Martin we know that the following is okay.

Port-----Ship----- [ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Port with no other connection other than the sea lane and using an industry card.



Are the following also legal using industry cards and no other connection other than the sea lane? Depending on the way you read the rule any of these could or could not be legal...

Port-----Ship-----[ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Port (is the sea lane a rail link for building that belongs to all players no matter whose tokens occupy the locations?)

Port-----Ship----- [ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Factory (Is a port the only industry that can be built off of a sea lane in this manner?)

Port-----Ship-----[ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Iron Works (Combination of both issues...)

I THINK the idea is that buildings check for their legality as if they were already built. So when building a port:
1. stick the port on the board in the city
2. check for a connection: either you played a location card (have a 'connection' in that location; all is good!) or an industry card. If the latter, you need to either already have presence in that city, or a rail link to that city. Sea lanes, are essentially in play if there's a port in the origin city. Since there is (the one you just placed on the board), you get to count the sea lane in-game so if you had a ship out there, you're also connected to the city where you're building a port.
3. pay for the port: since the port is on the board, you can use it to access the coal market if necessary

For sea lanes, the idea that they count for every player when using industry cards is a simplification. The rules say "If you played a ship card and the space in question is connected to a location that contains a port and a counter of your own colour (which may be the port counter, or a railway counter that connects to the location)." So I interpret the first part ("a location that contains a port") to mean that the port essentially brings the sea lane into play. The second part ("and a counter of your own colour (which may be the port counter, or a railway counter that connects to the location") means that you get to count the sea lane as yours if it is connecting to a city you're already in or are already connected to by a railway counter.

So that explains the first example Port-----Ship----- [ ] can become Port-----Ship-----Port

However, the second (Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port) would not work because green isn't connected to that city: the port would bring the sea lane into play, but it is a blue ship, not a green one.

The factory may not be built with an industry card, since the sea lane is there only if there were a port in the city; nor the iron works, for the same reason.

Maybe?
 
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If my interpretation is correct, then maybe it would be easier to explain the rule as follows:
1. a sea lane is virtual; it comes into play if a port is built in the connected city
2. when using an industry card to build, a sea lane counts as a railway counter belonging to the player(s) with either an industry tile built in one of the locations on either end of the sea lane, or a railway counter connected to one of those locations.

Is that consistent with all the various rulings?
 
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Roland Wood
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snoozefest wrote:

The factory may not be built with an industry card, since the sea lane is there only if there were a port in the city; nor the iron works, for the same reason.

Maybe?


The only niggle is the wording in the rules says that a completed sea lane counts for building using industry cards for all players. I think you are probably right and it fits better thematically but one could interpret it the other way without an official ruling.

I do agree (now that I've thought on it) with your assessment of not being able to build a factory off of a ship because the sea lane to the new port location is not complete. So then would this situation be permissible with an industry card?

Port-----Ship-----Port[ ] -----> Port-----Ship----- PortFactory

With another player's port completing the sea lane could I (Blue) then use an industry card to build the factory in the same location as his Port using my ship as the connecting factor?
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Seb Charbonneau
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Hey guys,

We had our first game on Japan map last night and hard time to figure how Sea Lane was working.

Hereis my interpretation:


The following are legal moves using Industry card
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

Port-----Ship-----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----Port - Port (if there is two Port spot in the city)

Port-----Ship-----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill

Port-----Ship-----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill

With no Rail link to the Red Port, Green will not be allowed to use the Sea Lane. Thus, only if Green have a rail link to the city containing the Red Port, Green will be allowed to do the following move:

Rail link Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

Rail link Port-----Ship-----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill

Finally, a Sea Lane is between two adjacent Port and according to me, a Ship is required in each Sea Lane a player want to use, but Port are only necessary at each end of the Sea Lane used (or player need to build a Port in the building city) as in the following example:

Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port (Blue can also build a Port. Only if Green have a rail link to the initial red Port, Green will be able to build)

Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill (Red can also build a Manufacture Good or Cotton Mill. Only if Green have a rail link to the initial red Port, Green will be able to build)



The following are not legal moves:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship----- Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill (any colour) - Because there is no Port in the building city

I may have missed a couple a specific situation, but I'll be glad to clarify if any question.

BR


 
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Mark Gerrits
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BigRoad wrote:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

This is the one that's just not clear to me, because of the example in the rules with the ship tile (as also stated in princemousey's post).
 
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Clement Tey
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BigRoad wrote:
The following are legal moves using Industry card
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port
Isn't this illegal as Red cannot connect to his port via Blue's ship?

BigRoad wrote:

Rail link Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port
Isn't this illegal as Green cannot connect to his Port via Blue's Ship?

BigRoad wrote:

Rail link Port-----Ship-----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill
Isn't this illegal as Green cannot connect to his Factory via Red's Port or Blue's Ship?

BigRoad wrote:

Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port (Blue can also build a Port. Only if Green have a rail link to the initial red Port, Green will be able to build)
I think Blue can build a port as he is connected via Blue Ship. I think Green cannot build at all as he is not connected in any way.

BigRoad wrote:

Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port -----> Port-----Ship-----[ ]----------Ship -----Port - Manufacture Good / Cotton Mill (Red can also build a Manufacture Good or Cotton Mill. Only if Green have a rail link to the initial red Port, Green will be able to build)
Red should not be able to build as he is not connected to the Blue Port? And I'm guessing that like above, Green cannot build as he is not connected at all.
 
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Clement Tey
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Runkst wrote:
BigRoad wrote:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

This is the one that's just not clear to me, because of the example in the rules with the ship tile (as also stated in princemousey's post).

This is illegal after all, as Red is not connected to Blue's Ship.
 
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They could build it with a color card, tho, right?
 
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Clement Tey
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Yes, of course. BigRoad was talking about the industry cards. I did quote that in my first post but obviously didn't carry it through to the 2nd post. In all situations, colour cards can be used. Exception is that ships cannot be built off colour cards without a connected port (belonging to any player).
 
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Seb Charbonneau
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Hereis an extract of the rules on Sea Lane:

"You can use a sea lane to move coal/iron or sell cotton/
manufactured goods in the same way as a rail connection IF there is a
constructed port at each end of the sea lane and a constructed ship in
between."

As per my interpretation of the rules, there is no requirement for the Ship and/or the Port to be yours in order to be able to use the Sea Lane, Otherwise why making them available to everyone.

In this case, the rules should have required a completely different wording.

The example make it a little more confusing by indicating :"e.g. one of you ship counters would allow you to use an industry card to build in any connected location, but only if there is a port there or you intend to build a port with your action."

According to me, this example should not be viewed as excluding all other situations. Otherwise, only the player with the Ship would be allow to use the Sea Lane.

BR



 
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princemousey wrote:
Runkst wrote:
BigRoad wrote:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

This is the one that's just not clear to me, because of the example in the rules with the ship tile (as also stated in princemousey's post).

This is illegal after all, as Red is not connected to Blue's Ship.


Princemousey, According to me, your interpretation would be too narrow and will be against the initial principle state in the rules concerning the Sea Lane that are supposed to be availale to everyone.

But I might be wrong.

BR
 
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princemousey wrote:
Yes, of course. BigRoad was talking about the industry cards. I did quote that in my first post but obviously didn't carry it through to the 2nd post. In all situations, colour cards can be used. Exception is that ships cannot be built off colour cards without a connected port (belonging to any player).


Agree. You could always built anywhere using a colour card to the extend that you have acces to proper resources.

BR
 
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BigRoad wrote:
princemousey wrote:
Runkst wrote:
BigRoad wrote:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

This is the one that's just not clear to me, because of the example in the rules with the ship tile (as also stated in princemousey's post).

This is illegal after all, as Red is not connected to Blue's Ship.


Princemousey, According to me, your interpretation would be too narrow and will be against the initial principle state in the rules concerning the Sea Lane that are supposed to be availale to everyone.

But I might be wrong.

BR


Princemousey, My issue with your interpretation is that in the normal game, you don't need to have a Port of your colour to have access to get resources from external market. The presence of a Port of any colour plus a ground connection of your own colour to that port would be enough to get the resources.

Why would it be different for Sea Lane that belong to everyone?

BR
 
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Clement Tey
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Hey BigRoad, we're talking about building off industry cards right? The rules for building off industry cards are more restrictive than delivering goods or resources.

For industry cards, you must be connected to the location via rail link or counters of your own colour. Whereas for delivering of resources, you can use any available railway track.

Am looking forward to your response. This is an intriguing discussion we have here and you raise some excellent points!
BigRoad wrote:
BigRoad wrote:
princemousey wrote:
Runkst wrote:
BigRoad wrote:
Port-----Ship-----[ ] -----> Port-----Ship-----Port

This is the one that's just not clear to me, because of the example in the rules with the ship tile (as also stated in princemousey's post).

This is illegal after all, as Red is not connected to Blue's Ship.


Princemousey, According to me, your interpretation would be too narrow and will be against the initial principle state in the rules concerning the Sea Lane that are supposed to be availale to everyone.

But I might be wrong.

BR


Princemousey, My issue with your interpretation is that in the normal game, you don't need to have a Port of your colour to have access to get resources from external market. The presence of a Port of any colour plus a ground connection of your own colour to that port would be enough to get the resources.

Why would it be different for Sea Lane that belong to everyone?

BR
 
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Seb Charbonneau
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Hi Princemousey,

Yea I'm referring to building off industry cards that can only be built if you are link to your network, either using rail link, counter or using the new rules introduce in Version 2 and Japan map expansion, through Sea Lane.

For me, I see Sea lane similar to rail link with the exception that a Port is required to be connected to it. no matter to whom to Port belongs to, as long as your rail link is connected to a Port, I understand that you are connected to Sea Lane. Second difference between Sea Lane and Rail link, in order to use a Sea lane as a connection, there should be a Ship on it to either built a Port in the next city or if there is already a Port, to built a rail next to that city or to built a Industry in that city.

In my view, no matter the Port or the Ship belong to whom, as long as there is two Port and a ship in between, you can use the Sea Lane to built of industry cards.

Otherwise, building a Ship will prevent any other player to use the Sea lane to built off industry cars, which I consider will go against the initial principle state in the rules concerning the Sea Lane that they are supposed to be availale to everyone.

BR
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Clement Tey
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And this links back to my original question..
princemousey wrote:
Ok, I have a related question! The rules state:
A sea lane counts as a rail link that belongs to all players for the purposes of building with industry cards, e.g. one of your ship counters would allow you to use an industry card to build in any connected location, but only if there is a port there or you intend to build a port with your action.

So if it belongs to all players, why do I still need to have one of my own ship counters there first?

Following on from OP's example, Blue owns the ship. Can Red then use an industry card to build to a connected port even though he has no other links to it but Blue's sea lane?
 
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