Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Thunderstone» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Destroy Food" Dungeon Effects rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Several heroes have Dungeon effects that will give them an ATTACK +X bonus if a "Food" item is destroyed. The only 3 "Food" items in the base game that can trigger such an effect are "Iron Rations", "Feast" and "Goodberries". All of these "Food" cards also have a dungeon effect of their own, which can be activated independently.

The Card Glossary section in the rules explicitly says that "If a Dungeon Effect destroys Iron Rations, you cannot use it to gain the Strength bonus".

I read that like I can either use Iron Rations to increase the strength of one of my heroes (using the Food card's own Dungeon Effect) or use one of my heroes' Dungeon Effects to destroy the Iron Rations, but I cannot do the following (in one Dungeon Action, that is): first, use Iron Rations to increase the strength of one of my heroes, then destroy the same Iron Rations to trigger another dungeon effect that would give an attack bonus to one of my heroes.

Is that correct so far (I think it is laugh)?

My real question is: what about the other 2 "Food" items, Goodberries and Feast? Does the same rule apply for these, too? Meaning: as soon as I played the Feast's own dungeon effect, could I no longer destroy it in the same turn to get an additional attack bonus for one of my heroes?

The card glossary does not cover these cases for Feast and Goodberries, but it would only be consistent to handle all food items the same way, or not?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Bolme
United States
Charlotte
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You are correct.

If a card uses an ability, it cannot afterwards be destroyed by another card (except, of course, monsters).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uwe Heilmann
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi,

there are also Glowberries ... another food item.
The rules say (chapter Dungeon Effects): ... whenever a Dungeon Effect destroys another card, that card is immediately removed from play, and cannot be used for any other effect ...
That provides the answer to your question and is not only valid for FOOD cards.

Interpreting this rule for food: you either share the berries, etc between the team (currently in the dungeon) for a group effect or give it to one specific member to help her/him increasing her/his abilities for a one-time super effort.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Edward. That answered my question.

@Uwe: Thanks for the additional information.

Uwe wrote:
... whenever a Dungeon Effect destroys another card, that card is immediately removed from play, and cannot be used for any other effect ...

Yeah, of course. That's pretty straightforward and easily understood. But that's not quite what my question was... The above rule only says: as soon as a card is destroyed, you can no longer play any of its dungeon effects. But it doesn't answer the question if you can still destroy it after having previously used one of the card's own dungeon effects.

Uwe wrote:
That provides the answer to your question and is not only valid for FOOD cards.

Mhmmm... really? Can you give some examples?

How about "Banish": if I used that dungeon effect later during my action, would I also NOT be allowed to destroy any card that I already used a dungeon effect from (like an Iron Rations used to increase a heros strength by 2)? In this case, I'm not really benefiting a second time from the card...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uwe Heilmann
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi,

please, do not miss the point "... ANOTHER card ...". So, a Spear, for example, can be applied in both "functions" at the same time (loosing the card this way ... the spear is simply not just used as a pole arm but actually thrown and lost that way ...).

Regarding BANISH:
First step: either return one monster (any rank, except 0, as this rank no longer is IN the hall) bla bla bla or rearrange the three cards in the hall.
Second step: destroy one card from your hand (it could be the BANISH card itself, but any other also applies).
Third step: Draw one card.

It is not allowed to do anything else between those three steps.

So you better do not destroy a card by BANISH that you still want to use or use it before applying BANISH.

I hope this helps.


Cheers
U.L.H.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phew, this game is a little more complex than I thought...

Thanks anyway for your reply. It helped a bit, but not completely...

"Spear" is actually a bad example and doesn't relate to my original question: you can equip it, but as soon as you use its dungeon effect, it destroys itself and is gone, so you never get into the situation where another effect would then also try to destroy this card.

This thread is all about: can I still destroy a card after having used one of its own dungeon effects.

Let me sum up what I've learned from your answers and the rules (especially page 11, section "dungeon effects") so far:

1. Whenever a dungeon effect destroys another card, that card is immediately removed from play and cannot be used for any other effect.

The more interesting part is that this is evidently also true vice versa:

2. If you use any dungeon effect of a card, that card cannot afterwards be destroyed by the dungeon effect of another card.

Bear in mind that we're only talking "dungeon effects" here, so battle and/or breach effects (which are applied in later steps) may still destroy any card regardless of rule 2.

This all makes perfect sense thematically, especially for the food cards, the argument being: you either benefit from a given food card by devouring it applying method A and gaining bonus A or by eating it applying method B and gaining bonus B - once you've done either A or B, the food is gone, so you can't get the other bonus from the same food source.

Strictly applying rule 2 to all cards, this would mean that if you activated a "Banish" spell, you couldn't (after the "manipulate-the-hall"-step) destroy any card that already used a dungeon effect (be it a "Feast" or a Hero that only drew 1 card during this dungeon action). And that appears to be a little strange/unnatural to me!

For example: if I had the following hand:

- 1 Disease
- 1 Regian Cleric
- 1 Thyrian Squire
- 1 Iron Rations
- 1 Lorigg Rogue
- 1 Banish

I use the Cleric's dungeon effect to destroy the disease and draw a card: another Lorigg Rogue. I now have 2 Rogues and activate each of their dungeon effects to have all other players discard 2 cards. Then, I use the Squire's dungeon effect and destroy my Iron Rations to give the squire ATTACK +4. Finally, I use the "Banish" spell, rearrange the hall and as all my other cards have already used a dungeon effect, I have no other choice(!) than to destroy my "Banish" card itself. I still draw 1 new card as the last part of my "Banish" card is resolved (it's already been destroyed, but since this got triggered by the card itself, the effect chain is continued!).

Does that sound right?

I could live with that rule, but is that really what the designers wanted? I could imagine that the intention was to prevent a player from getting 2 bonuses from the same card, but destroying a card in form of a "penalty", with no transparent advantages (as in the case of "Banish") could be a different story...

The rules are very vague on this subject, page 11 actually only gives us a reference to Iron Rations: "Similarly, if you use Iron Rations to give a Hero Strength +2, it cannot also be destroyed by another Dungeon Effect".

So, maybe Edward can confirm again whether rule 2 (i. e. his answer to my original question) applies to "Food" cards only or whether it really applies to all cards and allsituations in which cards may get destroyed by dungeon effects in this game... meeple
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uwe Heilmann
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi,

now it gets interesting.

Your (1.): correct.
Your (2.): not correct as a mandatory case. A card that was used for its effect can still be affected by other cards of yours. If its effect would destroy it, of course, it is no longer available (its effect lasts for the activity, of course, e.g. increasing a hero's ATTACK value for the length of battle).
A "lasting" effect of a card X would be gone, if the card is destroyed by an effect applied by another card Y AFTER card X was taken care of. But a "single" action of card X would still be valid even if the effect of card Y now destroys card X. See your example card set below.

Your statements about "food": not correct.
If you use IRON RATIONS, the following applies: you must assign it to a hero and she/he gets +2 to her/his strength for this dungeon "visit". The card itself is NOT destroyed by this.
(GLOW BERRIES provide +3 to strength; FEAST is powerful: ALL heroes in the dungeon receive 3 to their strength plus 1 to their attacks; GOODBERRIES provide +3 to the strength of one hero and that hero's attacks all become magic; for all thses cards: DO NOT DESTROY THEM WHEN USED FOR THIS!!!!)
Implications:
(1) If such a card is used to improve the capabilities for one or more heroes, no other card may be used to destroy it via its effects (battle and global effects are a different thing, of course, as they are generated by enemies).
(2) If you use another effect by one of your cards affecting such a FOOD card (the same is true for other types of cards, of course), the whole things looks different. It is impossible to mention all cases here (e.g. there are at least 64+4 different types of VILLAGE cards plus 36 different types of heroes in the game system).

So, let's look at your example.

(A) I use the Cleric's dungeon effect to destroy the disease and draw a card: another Lorigg Rogue.

Note: the clerics have a REPEAT effect, i.e. each single one could destroy any number of DISEASE card per turn!
The Cleric card was used (a "single action") and the guy could be still affected by any other of your cards' effects.
The bad guys could also still do so, of course.

(B) I now have 2 Rogues and activate each of their dungeon effects to have all other players discard 2 cards.

Fine. The other players will love you for that. Apart from that nuisance (a single action) your rogues are now still eligible for any other actions of yours during this turn.

(C) Then, I use the Squire's dungeon effect and destroy my Iron Rations to give the squire ATTACK +4.

Perfect! The squire devours all food (the one IRON RATIONS) and becomes a strong fighter for this turn. And the IRON RATIONS card is destroyed right now. No way to affect this card by any other of your cards' effects anymore.

(D) Finally, I use the "Banish" spell, rearrange the hall and as all my other cards have already used a dungeon effect, I have no other choice(!) than to destroy my "Banish" card itself.

Not correct! First of all, you did not use the effect of the IRON RATIONS. You had it destroyed by another card's effect! But the card is gone anyway so your BANISH cannot use it as the "sacrifice" of the spell. That leaves you:
the Regian Cleric, the Thyrian Squire, two Lorigg Rogues, and the Banish itself.
That means: you still have the option to sacrifice one of your heroes present or the Spell card itself.

(E) I still draw 1 new card as the last part of my "Banish" card is resolved (it's already been destroyed, but since this got triggered by the card itself, the effect chain is continued!).

Correct. The "new" card can still be used. Let's assume it is another IRON RATIONS card. Options:
(A) not used it at all (rather stupid ...);
(B) Provide it to all your remaining heroes to improve their strength values;
(C) Have the squire eat it for another ATTACK+2 ? (no way! the squire's Dungeon effect is not a repetitive one (he can eat any amount of schnitzel before battle but his attack is improved only once for that ...)).

So far for that example.
I hope it brought some clarification on this matter.

Keep asking.


Cheers
U.L.H.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Bolme
United States
Charlotte
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's put it this way:

If a card (including a hero) has used a dungeon effect, the only card that can destroy it is itself.

So in the example above, you could not choose to sacrifice the hero cards to Banish, as they have all been used for a Diungeon effect.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good. That's a clear ruling (and one I should be able to get across to my fellow argumentative gamers... ). Thanks again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uwe Heilmann
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi,

thank you for the "opinion" from the game provider.
But I will keep my "opinion" about this case.
Such a restriction affects the following cards:
POLYMORPH, DOOMGATE SQUIRE, GREEDBLaDE (no longer possible to destroy a card then showing a gold value?), QUARTERMASTER, TRADER, FORESIGHT ELIXIR,SPIRIT HUNTER, ILLUSORY BLADE, CREEPING DEATH, CLAYMORE, CHIEFTAIN'S DRUM, THUNDER RING, PIOUS CHAPLAIN, SPIRIT BLAST, BLESSED HAMMER, BURNT OFFERING, FORTUNE TELLER, SCOUT, ELF, TORYN, CHALICE, REDBLADE, THOLIS, DIVINE, HALF-ORC, CHULIAN, VERDAN, DIIN, BELZUR, SIDHE, REGIAN, DRUNARI, THYRIAN, SLYNN, LORIGG, GORINTH, PHALANX, GOHLEN, TERAKIAN, DEEP, and RUNESPAWN.

What a loss of options.
But anyway ... "Heck it's your game!" (from DOOMGATE LEGION rules book, page 8.)

For completeness:
AMBROSIA, SPOILED FOOD are also available Food cards.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Bolme
United States
Charlotte
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tuner 13 wrote:
Such a restriction affects the following cards:
POLYMORPH, DOOMGATE SQUIRE, GREEDBLaDE (no longer possible to destroy a card then showing a gold value?), QUARTERMASTER, TRADER, FORESIGHT ELIXIR,SPIRIT HUNTER, ILLUSORY BLADE, CREEPING DEATH, CLAYMORE, CHIEFTAIN'S DRUM, THUNDER RING, PIOUS CHAPLAIN, SPIRIT BLAST, BLESSED HAMMER, BURNT OFFERING, FORTUNE TELLER, SCOUT, ELF, TORYN, CHALICE, REDBLADE, THOLIS, DIVINE, HALF-ORC, CHULIAN, VERDAN, DIIN, BELZUR, SIDHE, REGIAN, DRUNARI, THYRIAN, SLYNN, LORIGG, GORINTH, PHALANX, GOHLEN, TERAKIAN, DEEP, and RUNESPAWN.


Gohlen: Correct, you cannot destroy Gohlen with Banish once you have used his ability. You can, however, destroy monster cards (and their VP), because you have not used an ability on those cards.

Greed Blade: Ditto.

Not going to go through all the cards, but those two leapt out at me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D M
msg tools
Side note, is the same true for discarding cards?

In particular, when playing Border Guard, can the card discard itself?

When playing multiple Border Guards, can one discard a previously used Border Guard for its effect? Could Border Guard discard cards that have already complete a fully-resolved Dungeon Effect?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uwe Heilmann
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi,

note: the following is my "opinion", maybe the AEG wizards see it differently ...

YES, a BORDER GUARD can discard itself. In a dungeon this would prevent the player to use the other effect of BORDER GUARD.

YES, regarding a sequence of BORDER GUARD cards applications, one such card can force another one to be discarded even if it has been used before. But not regarding the second effect (the mercenaries are no longer present to support a fight as mercenaries).


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Bolme
United States
Charlotte
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cards can always destroy themselves, and destruction rules do not apply to discard actions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arne Christen
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
edbolme wrote:
Let's put it this way:

If a card (including a hero) has used a dungeon effect, the only card that can destroy it is itself.

But if a card has used a VILLAGE effect, I am allowed to destroy it by a card other than itself?

E.g. I am visiting the village. I use the village effect of the town guard to draw two cards. After this I use the village effect of the sage to destroy this town guard to gain XP.


To sum everything up.

- I can always (during dungeon and village action) use the effect of a card and then destroy the card by itself to gain the second effect as well.

- During the village action I can use the village effect of a card and in addition I can destroy this card by the effect of another card.

- During the dungeon action, if I use the dungeon effect of a card, this card CAN'T be destroyed by the effect of another card.


Is this correct? Because in this thread they said I can use the dungeon effect of a card and still destory this card by teh effect of another card, However in this case the destroyed card can of course not be used to increase strength, attack or light, because it isn't there when you recheck these values durign the battle. (So the food effect can't be used when the card is destroyed, because the card is not there during the recheck).




Edit: Okay, I just found the official answers there:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7763776#7763776

So the correct rules are: No matter if you used a village or dungeon effect the card which used said effect can only be destroyed by itself.





 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.