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Subject: Stone Burner: How does it affect the number dialed? rss

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Stephen Williams
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So the effects of stone burner, as I understand them, are to kill both leaders as well as ALL of the opponent's army tokens, AND your army tokens dialed. Leaders can be saved with Shields, but the tokens die no matter what. This happens when resolving the treachery card, instead of after total strength has been tallied.

So, how does this affect battle resolution?

1) Are both players treated as if they had dialed zero since all their (committed) dudes just died? So basically the winner would come down to surviving leaders (Aggressor breaking ties as usual.)

2) Do the dialed numbers stand as is, even though the tokens are killed by this card, because they were legally there when plans were revealed? (My problem with this one is that leaders killed by treachery do not end up counting for resolution, so it seems to me army tokens killed at the same time should also not count.)

3) The opponent's wheel is forced to zero (since all his tokens in the territory die), but the person who played stone burner re-evaluates his dialed number based on how many tokens he NOW has left? ie: he had 10 units in territory and dialed 6. After stone burner is resolved he has 4 units left so his wheel is reduced to current strength. (This option just seems cheap.) Also, would the player of this card then lose the remaining 4 as "units dialed" at the end of the battle? That would strike me a thematically nonsense and mechanically pretty harsh, effectively double-taxing the player for units dialed just for the privilege of nuking all his opponent's tokens.
 
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Matt Smith
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I'm having trouble finding a reliable wording of this card. I'm looking at this one, which says that (1) both leaders are killed (2) all the opponent's tokens in the territory are killed and (3) half your tokens dialed are killed. By that ruling, you'll still have half the tokens you dialed in the fight, and therefore you would win.

edit: remember that dialed values never stand "as is". If at any time your dialed amount is greater than the possible value based on your tokens present, the dialed value is reduced to the highest maximum value. This can happen due to oversight (accidentally dialing 6 when you only had 4) or if someone Karamas your Fedaykin or Elite Sardaukar.

So in this case, their dialed amount would be reduced to zero, and your dialed amount would be reduced by half.
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Quote:
if someone Karamas your Fedaykin or Elite Sardaukar.


So you can Karamas Fedaykin & Sardauka???
Is there a complete list of everything you can Karama??
The Almanac doesn't have it.
 
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Matt Smith
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1. Prevent Atreides from using prescience on treachery bidding, spice deck, battle plan, or from using the Kwisatz Haderach counter.
2. Prevent Harkonnen from taking an additional treachery card or from capturing a leader.
3. Prevent Bene Gesserit from accompanying a shipment, using the Voice or playing a worthless card as a Karama Card.
4. Prevent Fremen from controlling a worm. Their tokens are devoured.
5. Prevent Feydakin and Sardaukar counting as 2 units in combat. The dialed values on the combat wheels stay the same unless token limitations require them to be reduced.
6. Prevent Guild from taking their Movement turn out of sequence. If their dot has already passed, they must take their turn immediately.
7. Win a treachery card without then paying for it.
8. Ship tokens at guild rates, paid directly to the spice bank (Fremen cannot do this)

I'm pretty sure that's everything.
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Ze Masqued Cucumber
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I have approx the same interpretation as Matt.

As far as my translation goes, stone burner effects are:
-kills your opponent's leader + all his troops in the territory
-kills your leader + half of your dialed troops
-shield protects leader from SB
-Paul is immune as long as he can use prescience

So that would mean:
-opponent's wheel=0
-your wheel=what you have originally dialed, or how much tokens you have left on board, whatever the smallest
-leaders go to tanks (or not)
-sum up and resolve as usual
-you lose the dialed troops anyway
I would also mean that if you don't succeed in killing your opponent's leader, you can lose the battle.

Disclaimer : Actually I used this card only recently. I remade my Dune Cards including the ones from the General, but I'm not sure I'll keep them (players are not used to them).
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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evilpanda wrote:
Quote:
if someone Karamas your Fedaykin or Elite Sardaukar.


So you can Karamas Fedaykin & Sardauka???
Is there a complete list of everything you can Karama??
The Almanac doesn't have it.


You'll find it does, as part of the Karama Powers list, and with Karama-susceptible powers listed in italics on the power lists.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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My understanding, which I used in the rules re-write, is that it is basically an almost-lasgun/shield, save that Leaders are protected by Shields (or being Muad'dib), and go Head-to-Head if they survive
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Ilya Baranovsky
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Here is online version of Grand Dune where Stone Burner card first appeared:
http://www.sorvan.com/games/dune/Rules/GrandDUNE.html

Grand Dune wrote:
Stone Burner - used as a special weapon. This weapon, played normally in battle, automatically kills an opponent's leader and all of his tokens in the territory, plus the friendly leader. Both players may use shields to protect their leaders against a stone burner, but all of the opponent's tokens are still removed to the tanks. A player who uses a stone burner in battle still loses the number of tokens he dials for the battle. If a lasegun/shield explosion occurs in the same battle, the lasegun/ shield explosion takes precedence, destroying all leaders, tokens and spice in the territory. Optional rule: Unless a Karama card has been used in the same battle to prevent Atreides prescience, Paul Muad'Dib is not affected by the blast of the stone burner.


1) Any leader not protected by Shield dies, doesn't matter who uses Stoneburner.
Also Stone Burner kills all opponent tokens.

2)Stone Burner doesn't affect your own tokens (when your leader uses SB).

BUT after SB explosion you loose number of tokens according to the number dialed - because of normal battle rules (if you win)

In my imaginetion it looks like this: your leader takes Stone Burner and goes alone close to enemy camp, Thus only figthing leaders without Shield and opponent tokens are destroyed by SB.

Any other tokens on territory are safe, because SB explosion is smaller then Lasgun/Shield explosion.

Now count surviving leaders and your tokens dialed, opponent has 0 tokens.

You may still loose battle (and all tokens), if opponent's leader survived and his strength is big enough.

If you win in battle, you loose your dialed tokens as usually (NOT half of dialed) because they worked enough this day :)

Quote:
Paul is immune as long as he can use prescience

This is probably a house rule.


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Jormungandr83 wrote:
1. Prevent Atreides from using prescience on treachery bidding, spice deck, battle plan, or from using the Kwisatz Haderach counter.
2. Prevent Harkonnen from taking an additional treachery card or from capturing a leader.
3. Prevent Bene Gesserit from accompanying a shipment, using the Voice or playing a worthless card as a Karama Card.
4. Prevent Fremen from controlling a worm. Their tokens are devoured.
5. Prevent Feydakin and Sardaukar counting as 2 units in combat. The dialed values on the combat wheels stay the same unless token limitations require them to be reduced.
6. Prevent Guild from taking their Movement turn out of sequence. If their dot has already passed, they must take their turn immediately.
7. Win a treachery card without then paying for it.
8. Ship tokens at guild rates, paid directly to the spice bank (Fremen cannot do this)

I'm pretty sure that's everything.


Never heard number 5-8 before.
But don't forget each Faction's special Karama Ability:
9. As Emperor: revive up to 3 Tokens or 1 Leader for free.
10. As Fremen: cause a worm to appear in any Territory you wish,
11. As Harkonnen: swap X amount of treachery cards with another player (some rule sets limit this to 2)
12. As Guild: prevent 1 off-planet shipment of any 1 player
13. As Atreides: look at entire battle plan.
14. Cancel 9-13

See? I'm sure there are even MORE Karama Powers out there. sigh...
 
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Does any feel the "You may keep this card if you win the battle." a little too over powering? With minor cards like the shield, etc, no problem. But with the Stone Burner? Damn, that's powerful. My group has been using the Stone Burner as a suicide bomber. Eliminate over ten enemy army units in an area for the price of one unit and potentially one leader. Then you keep the card? POWERFUL.
 
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Ilya Baranovsky
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evilpanda wrote:
Eliminate over ten enemy army units in an area for the price of one unit and potentially one leader. Then you keep the card? POWERFUL.

Many cards from Spice Harvest, Duel and General are unballanced. Some are powerful, some are weak.

In Dune universe Stone Burner is really powerful, but using this weapon is illegal according to Great Convention.

You could try a house rule like these:

a) SB must be discarded, no matter who wins.
b) After battle your opponent discards one random treachery card from your hand (if you were using SB)
c) Player who played SB can not bid for treachery cards in next round (or this player and all his/her allies)

etc...
 
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Joel Tamburo
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I would say that we need to keep this stuff all properly separated. Probably 95% of dune players use just the base game, and when questions don't clearly state what expansion is in use it can be confusing.
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Matt Smith
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evilpanda wrote:

Never heard number 5-8 before.
But don't forget each Faction's special Karama Ability:
9. As Emperor: revive up to 3 Tokens or 1 Leader for free.
10. As Fremen: cause a worm to appear in any Territory you wish,
11. As Harkonnen: swap X amount of treachery cards with another player (some rule sets limit this to 2)
12. As Guild: prevent 1 off-planet shipment of any 1 player
13. As Atreides: look at entire battle plan.
14. Cancel 9-13

See? I'm sure there are even MORE Karama Powers out there. sigh...

Nothing can cancel a Karama ability. The only "karama" that can be canceled is the BG's use of a Worthless card as a K card.

My 5-8 are on the player aid.
 
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Dan The Man
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Ilya 77 wrote:
Here is online version of Grand Dune where Stone Burner card first appeared:
http://www.sorvan.com/games/dune/Rules/GrandDUNE.html

Grand Dune wrote:
Stone Burner - used as a special weapon. This weapon, played normally in battle, automatically kills an opponent's leader and all of his tokens in the territory, plus the friendly leader. Both players may use shields to protect their leaders against a stone burner, but all of the opponent's tokens are still removed to the tanks. A player who uses a stone burner in battle still loses the number of tokens he dials for the battle. If a lasegun/shield explosion occurs in the same battle, the lasegun/ shield explosion takes precedence, destroying all leaders, tokens and spice in the territory. Optional rule: Unless a Karama card has been used in the same battle to prevent Atreides prescience, Paul Muad'Dib is not affected by the blast of the stone burner.
...
Quote:
Paul is immune as long as he can use prescience

This is probably a house rule.

Um...
whistle
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Jormungandr83 wrote:
evilpanda wrote:

Never heard number 5-8 before.
But don't forget each Faction's special Karama Ability:
9. As Emperor: revive up to 3 Tokens or 1 Leader for free.
10. As Fremen: cause a worm to appear in any Territory you wish,
11. As Harkonnen: swap X amount of treachery cards with another player (some rule sets limit this to 2)
12. As Guild: prevent 1 off-planet shipment of any 1 player
13. As Atreides: look at entire battle plan.
14. Cancel 9-13

See? I'm sure there are even MORE Karama Powers out there. sigh...

Nothing can cancel a Karama ability. The only "karama" that can be canceled is the BG's use of a Worthless card as a K card.

My 5-8 are on the player aid.


Hmm... On Scott's Treachery Player Aid, he listed that you can prevent these.
 
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Matt Smith
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If he wants to house-rule that in, that's fine. But it isn't supported by the rulebook or Brad's WBC tournament clarifications (which can be found in the file section).
 
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Randy Brown
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I always thought that things like karama-ing Feydakin/Sardaukar had to happen before the battle resolution (like canceling the Voice/Prescience). It seems a little too generous to allow that after the big reveal: not at all in the spirit of the game. "Oh, you would win....unless your Feydakin took a lunch break at the Karama Diner" devil.
 
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Stephen Williams
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Ilya 77 wrote:

1) Any leader not protected by Shield dies, doesn't matter who uses Stoneburner.
Also Stone Burner kills all opponent tokens.

2)Stone Burner doesn't affect your own tokens (when your leader uses SB).

BUT after SB explosion you loose number of tokens according to the number dialed - because of normal battle rules (if you win)


Thanks for the original text reference, Ilya. I guess the version of the rules I was using were perhaps not worded as clearly as they could have been (or they were deliberately changed.)

discoking7 wrote:
It seems a little too generous to allow that after the big reveal: not at all in the spirit of the game. "Oh, you would win....unless your Feydakin took a lunch break at the Karama Diner"


I beg to differ. How is a sudden and unforeseen betrayal not in the spirit of this game? That's what this game is all about!

As far as thematic explanations, Karama cards are meant to represent the twisting whim of fate turning things on their head. The Sardaukar are elite soldiers of untold skill and power, but everyone gets unlucky sometimes, and the seemingly puny Guild smugglers pull a surprise victory out of their... hats.
 
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Randy Brown
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Stewi wrote:

I beg to differ. How is a sudden and unforeseen betrayal not in the spirit of this game? That's what this game is all about!

As far as thematic explanations, Karama cards are meant to represent the twisting whim of fate turning things on their head. The Sardaukar are elite soldiers of untold skill and power, but everyone gets unlucky sometimes, and the seemingly puny Guild smugglers pull a surprise victory out of their... hats.


I can agree with that. I just think that nothing should affect the battle plans once revealed. I don't like the gamey-ness of playing the card after knowing you would have lost without it. It just somehow seems artificial in a way that is otherwise lacking in the game.

Perhaps the Karama should be played as part of the battle plan rather than before or after. If the Karama card was part of the battle plan, that would certainly give you the twist of fate effect, while preventing the gamey-ness scenario.
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Slev Sleddeddan
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discoking7 wrote:
Perhaps the Karama should be played as part of the battle plan rather than before or after. If the Karama card was part of the battle plan, that would certainly give you the twist of fate effect, while preventing the gamey-ness scenario.


That's a variant I've seen before, and quite a cut-throat one by all accounts. It means that even Prescience, Voice, etc, can be ignored and the opponent not know until it's too late.
 
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