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Subject: When does pacifism work? rss

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Contig the fallen
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I personally agree with the comment "You have to contest the military" from the "Some thinking...", as in most games I have played, players who did well tended to have high military.

Thus, I wonder when is it alright to simply be a pacifist and give up building military?

One personal experience I have had is a game where one neighbor had the Colossus, and the other neighbor was already competing with his other neighbor. I was relatively new, and decided to just spend my card choices on other things. (In this specific game it worked out decent -- my neighbors still built up a decent military, and I got a few more points to offset my -6.)
 
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Steven Metzger
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contiguity wrote:
Thus, I wonder when is it alright to simply be a pacifist and give up building military?
In my experience, it's USUALLY a bad idea to build military.

More advanced, you build military when your opponents aren't doing it, but try to win military conflicts by the slimmest of margins.

If your opponents are over-building military (we're talking more than 1-4-7 symbols per ages I-II-III), and you're playing a 3p game, you basically WILL win by avoiding military altogether.
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Scott Allen
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I don't often build military unless there aren't any other good choices in my hand.

But yes, you want to win military by the smallest margin.
 
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Alex Bove
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contiguity wrote:
and I got a few more points to offset my -6.)


But it's not just -6. You're giving up 6 to the entire table, but you're giving up -12 to each of your neighbors (they're getting plus 9 for the military, don't forget). That's not insurmountable, but it's not trivial either. And if opponents know you will never play military cards, they can get that 12-point swing on you with one card. That's incredibly good for them.
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Matt N

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The time to not build military is when both of your neighbors are in an arms race with someone. If they are going to build 5 cards regardless of what you do, just take the negatives and find some nice blue cards. You could also get a few extra resource cards and try to be a war profiteer.
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Craig Sanderlin
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I just played a game with the leaders expansion. I had the following combination in play:

Tomyris: once tomyris enters play, during conflict resolution, the defeat tokens of this player are givin to the victorios neighboring city. this has no effect if the player's city is victorious in conflicts.

Strategist guild: gain one victory point for every -1 token on neighboring cities.

With this, just sit back and let them attack you. It nets you victory points!

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Vince Lupo
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ALEXANDRIA
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Doctor_Zaius wrote:
I just played a game with the leaders expansion. I had the following combination in play:

Tomyris: once tomyris enters play, during conflict resolution, the defeat tokens of this player are givin to the victorios neighboring city. this has no effect if the player's city is victorious in conflicts.

Strategist guild: gain one victory point for every -1 token on neighboring cities.

With this, just sit back and let them attack you. It nets you victory points!




Yea really sweet. I saw it happen.
 
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Alex Brown
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metzgerism wrote:
contiguity wrote:
Thus, I wonder when is it alright to simply be a pacifist and give up building military?
In my experience, it's USUALLY a bad idea to build military.

More advanced, you build military when your opponents aren't doing it, but try to win military conflicts by the slimmest of margins.

If your opponents are over-building military (we're talking more than 1-4-7 symbols per ages I-II-III), and you're playing a 3p game, you basically WILL win by avoiding military altogether.


I'm suprised by the force of this opinion. In 3er games particularly, you need to be winning at least one side in the majority of games.

The games where you don't need to are when you are the sole player picking up Green cards. This is rarer and rarer with experienced players. In 5+ player games I agree with an earlier poster: you give up on military when your neighbours are exceeding your ability to compete by staying a card ahead in each stage. This, of course, means they are letting green and blue cards gush through.

The vague response is to be pacific when other options are better. The nuanced view is that this is very rare. You always want to contest the military; you don't have to win, but you need to force your opponents to overvalue or undervalue the red cards by pressuring them.

In this sense I support taking military cards early in most circumstances. Usually this allows for 'free picks' from green cards, but mainly it puts the pressure on the opponent to respond or to let you keep a lead without effort. It's very difficult to come from behind in the race for red points.
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Contig the fallen
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Alex Brown wrote:

In this sense I support taking military cards early in most circumstances. Usually this allows for 'free picks' from green cards, but mainly it puts the pressure on the opponent to respond or to let you keep a lead without effort. It's very difficult to come from behind in the race for red points.


One issue with pacifism is that it seems Red cards are a great choice when the cards passed to you have no blue cards and no resources you want. It seems fairly common they cost little or nothing, and you need to catch up and win if you want any points from collecting them.

However, it sometimes seems like if your opponents are going for military also, after your neighbors take military from their cards, there is none left for you. In some cases it seems like if you can't build any in your initial hands, you may be hard pressed to be able to build any at all in the first round.
 
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M Van Der Werf
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Pacifism gets better with more players as the person winning military against you is less likely to win overall and easier to ignore. In 3p and 4p games the one winning military is very likely to be the one winning overall so the point difference between you and him by military can be too big too offset. In games with lower players it's also easier to win military because you get to see cards again and can make a better informed decision of what you and others will receive down the line, if you keep track well of what the others are playing you can plan to win military by minimal effort that way (there are also relatively less military cards in 3p i think)
If the ones pummeling you are in a arms race with their other neighbour it's also a great as they will be forced to spend much in military anyway regardless of what you do, if they are easily pummeling both neighbours you will want to compete as otherwise he is getting away with too cheap a deal. Even more so if your neighbours are having arms races on the other side it's easier to grab good other buildings because they will be forced to hate or draft red ones most of the time.

As with most strategies in 7 wonders being unique is ideal. (this is pretty much the case in any draft game). If you're the only pacifist on the table it can work out pretty well as the loss you'll take will be worth not having to compete for the overwanted red cards. In 3p i'd virtually always go military though as the other two have to be competing really hard for military for pacifism to be worth it.
 
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Steven Albano
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It really depends, and this is why I love this game.

If you aren't going military, then your neighbors only need to "slightly" go military to beat you.

Which means they build 1 building in Age 1, and they're set for life.

There are times when to not participate at all, but I find that pacifism really depends on the context.
 
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