David F
United States
Emeryville
California
Luck in games, in measured doses, is the catalyst which enables shocking game-changers that you'll remember and talk about forever.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
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Not another Iron Will thread! But this one covers a different facet.
- Vollick1979 doesn't like how you can use Iron Will to have nothing happen on partial results and pass results on Fleet Mobilization and Footage Transmitted.
- ackmondual wanted to talk about the -1 morale, though I can't actually tell if he likes it or not.
I don't have a problem with either of these. My beef is that it's far and away the most human-beneficial 0-strength card and can even rank among the best cards in the game. It is basically a +4 to any crisis card skill check regardless of color, and is probably more often playable into a skill check than a green 4! (Iron Will is good on any crisis card skill check, though possibly not one with a very good pass effect; a green 4 is good on any skill check with green).
What if the -1 morale triggers if the skill check is failed (instead of the skill check result being negative) and a human player contributed to the check? Is that too harmful? It'd make it a riskier card that you try to use with Investigative Committee, just like how the other 0-strength cards are a lot better with an Investigative Committee in play. It'd even make it risky for Cylon players, instead of just being something you slip into skill checks that humans want to tank.
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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I think it's fine as is, it adds risk to completely tanking checks. Also, I've seen skill checks fail because two players were "helping a lot", but both had Iron Will as their main contribution.
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Matt Vollick
Canada
St. Thomas
Ontario
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If you wanted to tone down Iron Will I would do something like:
Iron Will wrote:
Skill Check: If total strength in this skill check is within 4 3 of the difficulty, do not trigger the fail effect. If total strength in this skill check is 0 1 or less, lose 1 morale.
The 4 within the difficulty gives Iron Will an incredibly large range so I wouldn't mind toning it down a bit.
The 0 or less qualifier for losing morale really only applies when the skill check is tanked and destiny contains an Iron Will and a non-positive second destiny card.
I like the fact that Iron Will slightly discourages tanking skill checks so I wouldn't want to include the and one human player contributed part.
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Matt Vollick
Canada
St. Thomas
Ontario
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fizzmore wrote: I think it's fine as is, it adds risk to completely tanking checks. Also, I've seen skill checks fail because two players were "helping a lot", but both had Iron Will as their main contribution.
As Selwyth mentioned above, the value of Iron Will varies and increases quite a bit when an IC is in play. Usually I value an Iron Will somewhere between a 2 and a 3 when playing into a closed check, 4 I have seen all the Iron Wills and know where they are.
Wow, there are some people on BGG that have nothing better to do than debate BSG skill cards on a Friday Night.
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Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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Leadership is kind of dull otherwise. I think Iron Will is fine.
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David F
United States
Emeryville
California
Luck in games, in measured doses, is the catalyst which enables shocking game-changers that you'll remember and talk about forever.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
-
Just you, Matt, I'm still twiddling my thumbs at
work my browsing station.
I suppose Leadership is the "human-beneficial" color anyway (Executive Orders), and Iron Will fits into that.
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selwyth wrote: Not another Iron Will thread! But this one covers a different facet. - Vollick1979 doesn't like how you can use Iron Will to have nothing happen on partial results and pass results on Fleet Mobilization and Footage Transmitted. - ackmondual wanted to talk about the -1 morale, though I can't actually tell if he likes it or not.I don't have a problem with either of these. My beef is that it's far and away the most human-beneficial 0-strength card and can even rank among the best cards in the game. It is basically a +4 to any crisis card skill check regardless of color, and is probably more often playable into a skill check than a green 4! (Iron Will is good on any crisis card skill check, though possibly not one with a very good pass effect; a green 4 is good on any skill check with green). What if the -1 morale triggers if the skill check is failed (instead of the skill check result being negative) and a human player contributed to the check? Is that too harmful? It'd make it a riskier card that you try to use with Investigative Committee, just like how the other 0-strength cards are a lot better with an Investigative Committee in play. It'd even make it risky for Cylon players, instead of just being something you slip into skill checks that humans want to tank.
I actually like IW the way it is. I do like how you get rare cases where IW and a 0 or less (BTW, 0 also triggers the -1 Morale on IW) skill card just happen to be the Destiny cards on a skill check everyone passes.
It may be a bit too much to keep track of yet another thing, but really not the worst thing. It could be very easily abused by unrevealed cylons though.
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Vollick1979 wrote: The 0 or less qualifier for losing morale really only applies when the skill check is tanked and destiny contains an Iron Will and a non-positive second destiny card.
You're missing one obvious application: a cylon, revealed or otherwise, can play it into a check that humans want to fail, such as a cylon brig escape, or an airlock check.
I don't think the -1 morale part of it is a problem. It does exactly what it's supposed to do: make humans wary of tanking skill checks outright, if there's the possibility of an IW and a negative card in the destiny deck.
It shouldn't be a frequent source of morale loss on it's own, but just worrisome enough to prevent outright tanking in one or two checks throughout the game. Making reliable use of the -1 morale effect is for cylons.
I'm more inclined to agree that the 'within 4' range may be too beneficial, and I also don't appreciate how it counterintuitively interacts with some skill checks, as Vollick described.
However, Establish Network also has the potential to be massively helpful for the humans, while not being much of a threat if it's in the destiny deck, so it's not that different from other 0 strength cards.
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Hannibal Rex wrote:
However, Establish Network also has the potential to be massively helpful for the humans, while not being much of a threat if it's in the destiny deck, so it's not that different from other 0 strength cards.
By design, since almost everyone draws green, IW shows up more often. Since blue isn't always that prominent, Est. Netw. shows up less. However, it has allowed us to over shoot difficulties by more than 30 their value, while throwing in relatively the same number of cards as even "moderately heavy" checks.
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