Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: re: Allied Exploitation and Axis Supply Routes rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Doug Poskitt
Wales
Cwmavon
West Glamorgan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gentlemen,

Below is an image of a hypothetical situation (well actually I'm gaming out a knock-out blow against Berlin in Winter 1939).

It is the Allied Exploitation Combat Phase in Winter 1939. Berlin was defended by a single 3-3 Infantry Corps with no DAS. Two 4-5 armour, a 2-5 armour and 2 AFs of British air from Copenhagen attacked at 12:6 (2:1).

For the sake of this question, assume a 'D' result.



Here the exploitation moves made by the British from the breakthrough hex at O28:

4-5 (3) from O28 to M30
2-5 (WDF) from O28 to L30 (via M30)
4-5 (2) from O28 to L32 (via M30)

Question: "Which Allied units can and cannot advance after combat into Berlin (L31) with reference to the exploitation rules re: 'breaking the chain'?"

While I'm at it, here's a question about supply. Assuming the Allied 2-5 armour remains in place, are all the units in western Germany out of supply (as things stand on the mapboard at present)?

Just checking that the German fleets in Konigsberg are prohibited from tracing supply through Kiel/Hamburg to Bremen without having a fleet in Kiel/Hamburg itself.

Am I correct in assuming the German could have one fleet change base from Konigsberg to Kiel/Hamburg in the Axis Winter 39 Movement Phase, and then designate the fleet at Konigsberg to carry supply by sea from Warsaw to Kiel/Hamburg, where the fleet there could then carry it on to Bremen?

Many thanks in advance for your comments on these two questions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Good questions. I wish I were playing in some of these games you're asking about!

1. Regarding exploitation, I would say that the armour in M30 could not advance into Berlin, although it could attack. Either of the other two could advance into Berlin. If you were to remove the armour unit in M30, due to a combat result, then you would be into a grey area - there is a bit about units being eliminated not breaking the chain, however, it was not definitive. However, as long as the armour in M30 is there, I do not see any question regarding the ability of the other two armour units to advance.

2. Regarding supply, I agree that there would need to be a fleet in Kiel in order to carry the supply through to a port on the western front. However, fleets can rebase in order to carry supply, and such supply would be considered 'retroactive' to the start of the turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
To elaborate on the exploitation advance question, I do not believe there is any question whatsoever regarding the 2-5. In anticipation of some objection regarding the ability of the 4-5 east of Berlin to advance in, there is a DQB item which states the following:

Two requirements must be met:

1) the hex advanced into must be adjacent to the previous unit in the chain or be separated from it by one hex already passed through by an exploiting unit;

2) the advance must not leave a more distant unit in the chain in violation of the first requirement.


Point 2 is moot, as there is no 'more distant unit in the chain' with respect to the far eastern 4-5. Since Berlin is adjacent to the 'previous unit in the chain', i.e. the 4-5 in M30, requirement 1 is clearly satisfied for the eastern most 4-5 advancing into Berlin.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It would appear that both the 2-5 and the other 4-5 armor could move directly into Berlin. I'd move the 4-5, and keep the 2-5 where you show it. I do believe this would put the western German units out of the supply. Moving a 9-fleet into Kiel/Hamburg as a change base move, and declaring it and the remaining fleet at Konigsberg as supply fleets during the German turn would appear to keep the Western German units in supply, with Warsaw as the minor controlled capital acting as the supply source.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carter
United States
Woodbury
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a good reminder for the Germans to never leave the Rhine undefended.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Poskitt
Wales
Cwmavon
West Glamorgan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tallracer333 wrote:
This is a good reminder for the Germans to never leave the Rhine undefended.


And never was a truer word said.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Rochelle
United States
Huntsville
Alabama
flag msg tools
✔️✔️❌✔️❌✔️ ➖➖➖➖
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Concur that either northern Brit armor can advance into Berlin, with the L32 4-5 obviously being preferable, and that the M30 4-5 cannot.

Concur that all western German units are out of supply as the board stands. Concur that Germany could rebase one fleet to Kiel and then Sea Supply from Warsaw -> Kiel -> Wilhelmshaven/Bremen.

Looks like Germany can put 2x 4-6s from the NW salient, 1x 3-3 from E Prussia, and the Airborne in an attack on Berlin (already up to 14:8), with lots of air support (one factor of Sea Supply from Konigsberg can route up to the airborne while the rest continues on with the Kiel fleet, I think). Given that, it might be worth considering putting the 2-5 at M30 and occupying Berlin with both 4-5s.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Poskitt
Wales
Cwmavon
West Glamorgan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lomn wrote:
Looks like Germany can put 2x 4-6s from the NW salient, 1x 3-3 from E Prussia, and the Airborne in an attack on Berlin (already up to 14:8), with lots of air support (one factor of Sea Supply from Konigsberg can route up to the airborne while the rest continues on with the Kiel fleet, I think). Given that, it might be worth considering putting the 2-5 at M30 and occupying Berlin with both 4-5s.


I agree with the two x 4-6s and the airborne and the 3-3 in East Prussia. In order to make use of the units in the west in an offensive, both fleets would have to be used.

With the Danish air and 2 AFs of RAF SR'd in, the final odds would be 24:11 (2:1). Thus with this attack on Berlin, the German has the option to affect an attack which is 97% sure of regaining Berlin.

Shucks! Back to the drawing board.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carter
United States
Woodbury
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dougposkitt wrote:
Thus with this attack on Berlin, the German has the option to affect an attack which is 97% sure of regaining Berlin.

Shucks! Back to the drawing board.

It looks like you needed some Russian armor attacking from the east to make this work. (Ahh... fond memories!)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wish I had time for one of these cool Vassal games. But to be blunt, the recent bevy of Allied occupied Berlin scenarios so early in the game is stunning. Once in a blue moon should be the usual -- I think perhaps that it is more than players of disparate experience but also a layer or rust in regards to multi-pronged threat.

I'm not going to use the word "mistake" because that is too harsh. But in the example above the German player could have just as easily made the same threats to France by the following:

The 2 German armor in the south of Germany could have equally threatened southern France by being placed in Nurenberg P27.

The German armor in the north not only could be back 2 more hexes and still threaten The Hague and Sedan but also could be a more vague threat be being SW of Berlin where they could add to threat to southern France.

This much armor in the middle of Germany would have cobbed the whole Allied exploitation. In fact, in all likelyhood, would prevented the Allied attempt.

In short, there is little to no need to put the German armor so close to the front in Fall '39 build&redeployment phase. The lowlands will be deployed in a line and the Allied line will only get closer at best(worst) by Winter '39. Kill the threat and multiply the jeopardy to the enemy.

(edit) I've probably just doomed myself to having Berlin occupied in my very next game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And not to pile on but honestly, what is the replacement wall in NW Italy? I hope Italy is deployed agressively somewhere else.

I think Vassal would lead me to making rushed decisions. I would feel the pressure to return the turn quickly and miss things. I'm betting that is also some of what is going on.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Poskitt
Wales
Cwmavon
West Glamorgan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SewerStarFish wrote:
And not to pile on but honestly, what is the replacement wall in NW Italy? I hope Italy is deployed agressively somewhere else.

I think Vassal would lead me to making rushed decisions. I would feel the pressure to return the turn quickly and miss things. I'm betting that is also some of what is going on.


Not shown in the image is the rest of the Italian defense. It is a variation on the "Watney-Downing" defense put forward in The General by Mark C. Nixon.

I had deployed strong forces on board ship in Gibraltar (3-4 Inf, 4-5 Arm) and Port Said (2-5 Arm). Rather then press ahead with the Broad Front strategy re: Yugoslavia, the Italian player re-deployed to provide a really effective deterrant to invading at W24.

The Replacement wall is to ensure that Rome cannot be reached from an overland drive from southern France over the two turns of a possible Allied double turn.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I draw the opposite conclusion to Patrick. Maybe I'm just fortunate, but my current opponents and I (two ongoing games) have all agreed that we "take what time we need" to post. I find it relieves the pressure to make a quick response and there are examples of posts taking "what is needed" ... it seems to work well, and in the case of my three-player game with Dave and Ethan, doesn't interrupt the flow of the game unduly. If anything, it adds to the suspense ... as one wonders what the other side are up to. (I'm currently anticipating what plans the Soviet player has for the Winter 41 turn, when - having failed to secure the activation of Hungary in 1941 - the Axis lines in Russia are streteched somewhat thin.)

As regards this post, while I could almost certainly have gotten into Berlin (all attacks at 2:1 or greater) the German had too many options to make either a 2:1 attack, or if I altered my armoured swings to the north so as to open an SR corridor to reinforce, at least a 83.33% 1:1 counter-attack on Berlin.

Mind you, we now have the odd sight of the French armour at P25 racing along the east bank of the Rhine, placing French control flags in Bonn, Frankfurt and Stuttgart and ending up back in P25, thereby denying the German use of 3 airbases for Winter 39. (That's definitely a first in my experience!)

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jumbit
China
Zhejiang
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dougposkitt wrote:
well actually I'm gaming out a knock-out blow against Berlin in Winter 1939

"The Dolbee Gambit" rears its head again?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chris walsh
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Doug. Yeah the 'Watney' defence raises many unpleasent memories. Was this the one with the Italian 2-5 armour deployed in the hills outside Rome so the invading forces on W24 couldn't enter Rome in the two turns of the flip flop due to its ZOC? We could never seem to make it work.
And what is the 'Broad Front' (Yugoslavia) strategy? This is the Fall '39 Italian DOW and offensive/attrition right? I can't say we ever played a strategy in the Balkans till, say, Winter '40. Maybe we should start ...














1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.