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Subject: Questions about Character Activation rss

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Fabio Calzolari
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I have some doubt about the Character activation "sub-phase"...being in charge to teach the game to the other players, i'd like to be super-sure...

Things i'm understanding well are activation restrictions and Command Points character/orders restrictions, so we can focus on the other things without repeating the same things over and over.

When i activate a character, i can chose to do ANY of the following actions;
- assign a "new" order
- spend CPs on assigned orders
- spend CP to reload weapon
- use a "scripted" character special ability (spending the required CPs)
(.... i've read the rules just to this point, so if this need to be expanded pls do it)

a) Am i right? Can i do ALL of them?

b) There's a sequence to do them? I mean: can i spend CPs on that actions and then assign a new order as last action?

c) I MUST spend ALL the CPs i want on orders BEFORE starting doing any of them. I can't (as example) put CPs on Move, moving, and then put CPs on combat. Is this true?

d1) Character's Abilities does not need an Interact Order to be used, right?
d2) So, there's no way to add dice to the test spending CPs, right?

Thanks
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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a) Yes, as long as you can do it all under the character's max CP limit.

b) I've been playing it as a fixed sequence, but re-reading the rules I don't see it specifically written that way, except for being numbered paragraphs. I'm not sure it's terribly important though. I could be wrong.

c) No. You can spend CPs and execute them bit by bit, however you can only use a non-move action once so you have to spend all you need in one go for a close combat attack for example. Another example is that you can spend CP for movement one at a time, which allows you to react to any interruptions that might prevent you from using your remaining movement. The other choice, spending all CP on movement before moving, allows you to move your full movement even if you get wounded and flipped to a slower side during that move. Both can be smart depending on the circumstances.

d1) Correct.

d2) Correct.
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Fabio Calzolari
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Thanks!

DenGad wrote:
b) [...] I'm not sure it's terribly important though. I could be wrong.
c) No. You can spend CPs and execute them bit by bit ...

Mixing this two answer can make it important.
As example I could, then:
- activate my character
- spend CPs on movement and move trying to go adjacent to an enemy
- if it is still there, assign a "4-melee" order and spend CPs on it for a strong attack
- if it instead interrupts and goes away and i can't reach it anymore, save the "4-melee" order and do something else.

Instead i played until now as if all should be planned before and played in sequence, so i assigned the melee order, placed the CPs for move and attack, got interrupted, the enemy flew, and i basically wasted the attack order and the CPs assigned.
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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parduz wrote:
Thanks!

DenGad wrote:
b) [...] I'm not sure it's terribly important though. I could be wrong.
c) No. You can spend CPs and execute them bit by bit ...

Mixing this two answer can make it important.
As example I could, then:
- activate my character
- spend CPs on movement and move trying to go adjacent to an enemy
- if it is still there, assign a "4-melee" order and spend CPs on it for a strong attack
- if it instead interrupts and goes away and i can't reach it anymore, save the "4-melee" order and do something else.

Instead i played until now as if all should be planned before and played in sequence, so i assigned the melee order, placed the CPs for move and attack, got interrupted, the enemy flew, and i basically wasted the attack order and the CPs assigned.

Yes, although I'd swap the order of your last two bullets to make things clearer:

• Activate
• Move adjacent to an enemy
• If the enemy interrupts when you first come into her LOS, end your character's activation
• Otherwise, attack the character
 
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David C.
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I dont agree with the point that you can first execute orders, then put down a tile and then execute orders again.

Here is why:


The [1.] and [2.] indicates an order. Why should there be numbers otherwise? But this is arguable.

The red lined paragraph shows why you cant execute orders, place an order tile and execute more orders. It says they have to be done in "sequence".
From a logical approach I find it clear that you first give orders (order tile) and then execute them (CPs) in an activation. You dont execute orders, then get the orders and execute more.

But: you dont have to put all your CPs on an order tile at the beginning of the activation as indicated with the blue lined paragraph. It can be an advantage to put them all down though. If you get interrupted and wounded you could loose movement points - if you allready put down your CPs you will finish movement with your old movement value. Otherwise you could get stuck somewhere you dont wanna be at the end of your activation.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Torala wrote:
I dont agree with the point that you can first execute orders, then put down a tile and then execute orders again.

Here is why:


The [1.] and [2.] indicates an order. Why should there be numbers otherwise? But this is arguable.

The red lined paragraph shows why you cant execute orders, place an order tile and execute more orders. It says they have to be done in "sequence".
From a logical approach I find it clear that you first give orders (order tile) and then execute them (CPs) in an activation. You dont execute orders, then get the orders and execute more.

But: you dont have to put all your CPs on an order tile at the beginning of the activation as indicated with the blue lined paragraph. It can be an advantage to put them all down though. If you get interrupted and wounded you could loose movement points - if you allready put down your CPs you will finish movement with your old movement value. Otherwise you could get stuck somewhere you dont wanna be at the end of your activation.

Since you can perform "either or both" of the following options, I believe you have the option to execute orders on an existing tile, then elect to assign a new tile and execute further orders. The numbering, I believe, is just to indicate options 1 and 2.
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David C.
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(you may want to consider quoting the whole thing )

As I said, that point seems arguable. But as I also mentioned the important part for me seems to be the red bordered paragraph indicating that you cant break the sequence of executing orders in the same activation.

*edit*
To strengthen my argument I looked up the rules for Duels. This is taken from page 15 "Dueling for Interruption":
Quote:
¤¤An enemy Character is being activated in his LoS:

The non-Active player may ask for a Duel as soon as the
Active player declares which Character he is activating. The
Duel can happen even before the Active player assigns any
Order tile to the Character just activated.


The bolt sentence seem to indicate that the first thing in an activation would be assigning an order tile (if you choose to do so).
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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Torala wrote:
(you may want to consider quoting the whole thing )

As I said, that point seems arguable. But as I also mentioned the important part for me seems to be the red bordered paragraph indicating that you cant break the sequence of executing orders in the same activation.

Actually, I *think* that "in sequence" means "not simultaneously." Notice that the example following the red-lined paragraph indicates that first you do one thing, then another, then another, then another. Actions aren't simultaneous; first you perform one, absorb any ill effects gained while performing it, then perform the next one with lowered stats. If I were writing a rulebook, to indicate that all tiles must be placed in a row, then all actions executed in a row, I would have said just that. I think the rulebook here is focusing on the distinctness of actions within the game's reality as temporally sequential, not temporally simultaneous.
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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Torala wrote:
(you may want to consider quoting the whole thing )

As I said, that point seems arguable. But as I also mentioned the important part for me seems to be the red bordered paragraph indicating that you cant break the sequence of executing orders in the same activation.

*edit*
To strengthen my argument I looked up the rules for Duels. This is taken from page 15 "Dueling for Interruption":
Quote:
¤¤An enemy Character is being activated in his LoS:

The non-Active player may ask for a Duel as soon as the
Active player declares which Character he is activating. The
Duel can happen even before the Active player assigns any
Order tile to the Character just activated.


The bolt sentence seem to indicate that the first thing in an activation would be assigning an order tile (if you choose to do so).

Again, I think there it's simply saying that not only even before the phasing player chooses an action, but even before she chooses a tile, she can be interrupted. I think it's merely trying to emphasize that interruption can happen before anything happens, as soon as a character is activated. I think the example is description, not prescription—thus the "even." It's trying to make a point, not outline rules for other sections of the rulebook.

But I could be totally wrong, too.
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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I think the point is completely arguable, which this thread is proof of
However my gut feeling tells me that the intention of the rule is that you activate, then assign an order token and then spend CP and execute orders; always in that sequence. The evidence is circumstantial; the numbering of the paragraphs and the quote from the rules for Dueling.
Should Chris come along and say otherwise I shall of course have a serious talk with my gut about it's feelings
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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DenGad wrote:
I think the point is completely arguable, which this thread is proof of
However my gut feeling tells me that the intention of the rule is that you activate, then assign an order token and then spend CP and execute orders; always in that sequence. The evidence is circumstantial; the numbering of the paragraphs and the quote from the rules for Dueling.
Should Chris come along and say otherwise I shall of course have a serious talk with my gut about it's feelings

And I with mine, if the reverse happens!

I think, however, that the strongest evidence for complete freedom of choice during activation, aside from the wording in the rulebook, is realism. The Earth Reborn rules have been lauded for being noticeably and pointedly intuitive, and I this is part and parcel of my view. I can't think of any real-life analogue to a player's being forced to lay all tiles before taking all actions. After taking an action, the player has the option to take another. And in real life, the analogue to laying a tile and using it is simply performing an action. If after moving I can choose to shoot using my existing tile, why should I not be able to choose to shoot using a tile I have available to me? I don't see the simulative aspect of forcing all tile lays first, then all CP expenditure. If anything, as we act in real life, new options open to us, allowing us new actions.

I think the wording of the rules, and the simulative aspect of the game, strongly dictate complete freedom of action (within available tiles and CP) during the activation phase.

But enjoy your game, however you play. The point is that we're playing it!

Though I wouldn't say that an argument is proof that a point is arguable, simply that someone is arguing over it. There's a difference!
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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Yeah, proof is quite a strong word in this context. Evidence of? Indicative of? In a strict logical sense, it's not proof, I agree
I can see intution go either way depending on who you are; I won't argue your view as it makes just as much sense as mine. I even think both works just fine even if their simulative aspects differ.

On a tangent, which is actually completely clear in the rules; you can't duel for interruption during an interrupting action, but the only reason to disallow this is complexity (as I vaguely recall seeing Chris write somewhere). The boundaries of the CP allowance and max limits per character makes it perfectly viable to houserule this to simulate real life better. All you need is a little experience in recursive programming and some notes once you begin unravelling the interrupted actions

Man, I really like this game
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Jonathan Harrison
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DenGad wrote:
All you need is a little experience in recursive programming.

laugh
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Tyson McCann
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If you can do "either or both", then you can do one thing or two things.

Option 1: Assign Order Tile
Option 2: Execute Orders ("from different assigned order tiles")

To me, it's pretty clear if you want to Execute Orders first, then there's nothing in the rules saying you can't then assign an order tile (though I think there should be: "if you choose 'both' then you must Assign then Execute).

However, it's also clear that you cannot Execute Orders, then Assign an Order tile, and then additionally Execute Orders on the new tile again. That would be three things, not two as the word "both" states with finality. If that were the case, it would be logical you could also assign another order tile, which you can't.
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Blueshrike wrote:
If you can do "either or both", then you can do one thing or two things.

Option 1: Assign Order Tile
Option 2: Execute Orders ("from different assigned order tiles")

To me, it's pretty clear if you want to Execute Orders first, then there's nothing in the rules saying you can't then assign an order tile (though I think there should be: "if you choose 'both' then you must Assign then Execute).

However, it's also clear that you cannot Execute Orders, then Assign an Order tile, and then additionally Execute Orders on the new tile again. That would be three things, not two as the word "both" states with finality. If that were the case, it would be logical you could also assign another order tile, which you can't.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't think it's clear at all. The only way we know you can't assign an additional order tile is because the rules explicitly say you can "assign only one new Order tile". The rules are not this explicit about executing additional actions afterward. The number of types of options you have doesn't necessarily correlate with the number of times you can use those options. It's a limitation on the types of actions, not the frequency with which you can use them. IMO.

In fact, the wording of option 2: "2. Executing an Order" implies that players can execute only one order per turn. Yet what that the designer actually meant (as we see immediately following) was that the section explaining choice 2 isn't limiting us to one action, but is instead explaining how to perform an action, though we can perform many.

I simply don't see anywhere in the rules that deals with whether you can perform each option multiple times—except that it says you can't perform option 1 multiple times, and you can perform option 2 multiple times. It merely fail to state whether you can perform option 2, then option 1, then option 2 again—though it does say that option 2 means you can "execute multiple orders from different assigned Order tiles". That leaves things wide open for 2, 1, 2, IMO.

To put things another way, if I choose option 2, option 1, option 2, then I have, as the rules allow, "perform[ed] either or both of the following options": option 1 and option 2. Have I performed just one? No. I've performed both.
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Fabio Calzolari
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DenGad wrote:
All you need is a little experience in recursive programming.

eheh, that's more or less the reason of my question. I'm a programmer myself and so i tend to "visualize" flowcharts and routines while reading ruleset (instead of visualizing strategies and tactics, so i loose more often than not )
In this case i didnt find a clear "sequence" and my habits made me play as if it were one, but then i recon my "self-ruling".

I'll watch the discussion, waiting for a final word.
Thanks to all
 
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David C.
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
I can't think of any real-life analogue to a player's being forced to lay all tiles before taking all actions. After taking an action, the player has the option to take another. And in real life, the analogue to laying a tile and using it is simply performing an action.


It could be seen that laying an order tile is receiving your orders and spending CP is executing them.
First you receive orders, then you execute them. You dont execute some random orders from another talk with your commander (in this case from last activation which could be in a 2 player game with many characters a really long time ago), then get your real orders and execute them.

If you get your orders, try to execute them and then get interrupted you have to improvise with what you got... You dont ask for new orders in the middle of a fight.

Thats the reallife aspect as I see it. And I like it more for gameplay. If you first have to put down an order tile you are forced to think about your move and have to take into account that the others may know what your are up to. It has more thinking to it than just doing what you want and see what you get and just put an order tile down that fits the outcome.
It also makes the duel option much more interesting. Its liklier to be used if you have a sense of what the other one is up to.

But, as I write about it you could also argue that it will be used more often because you dont know what your enemy is going to do if he hasnt to put down an order tile. But wouldnt that result in way more scare-tactics then necessary and therefore interrupting the flow of the game?

Its an interesting discussion. But thats the beauty of the game - play as you want, its possible

I will try to contact Chris in the official forums. Maybe we can get a ruling
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Torala wrote:
If you get your orders, try to execute them and then get interrupted you have to improvise with what you got... You dont ask for new orders in the middle of a fight.

Yeah, 'cept I see this as characters acting on their own initiative, not troops receiving orders. It's low-enough-level combat that I see each soldier making most tactical decisions on his or her own, especially since sometimes they don't even have radio communication.

Let me know what you find out, though. I'll be interested to know.

Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.
 
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Fabio Calzolari
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Torala wrote:
I will try to contact Chris in the official forums. Maybe we can get a ruling

It is a very silent forum....
 
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parduz wrote:
Torala wrote:
I will try to contact Chris in the official forums. Maybe we can get a ruling

It is a very silent forum....

Yes. I was about to ask if he'd heard anything yet.
 
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David C.
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Sadly no... no answer yet. The official forum is in general very deserted.
 
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I'm surprised this issue hasn't been clarified, yet. Has anyone read an official clarification from the designer?
 
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Fabio Calzolari
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Mysterio wrote:
I'm surprised this issue hasn't been clarified, yet. Has anyone read an official clarification from the designer?

No. That forum is much more quiet than the ER Cemetery tile.
 
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Fabio Calzolari
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Ok, this was officially answered on the ER forum:

http://forum.earthreborn.ludically.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=...
Chris wrote:

* Do you have to first assign a tile and then execute the orders?
Not necessarily

* Are you allowed to first execute orders and then place a new tile to be used in future activations? (you still would have done either or both)
Yes you could. I don't see any problem with that.

* Are you allowed to execute orders, then place a tile, and then execute more orders? (you still would have done either or both, but more)
yes also.

Your only constraint is that you cannot lay down more than one order tile per round, and cannot exceed your Max CP allowance for this character.
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Sakata Gintoki
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Well, after all my characters are activated, I can play with a character twice in a row without having to play the other characters?
 
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